lee enfield sucks?

[thebeanie]

Originally Posted by naykon

Lee enfield rocks!!!!! haha i'll choose it over an AK 47 everytime, just because im a brit and feel like its my duty to go on a killing spree with it

HAHA!

This rifle was considered a very accurate rifle in WW2 Also held the record as the fastest firing bolt action rifle, Cant remember exactly how many rounds they got out in a minute..

Also have the 10 round capacity helps

[waldo_ii]

Originally Posted by blackhatch46

well you need to read what i wrote again. i said, it goes through flak jackets without plates. if you know what a flak jacket is it is what police usually wear and it lacks ceramic or kevlar plates. it is flexible and light to be more mobile. you usually add plates to flak armor to make it stop bullets like the ones we are issued. and i know this for a fact because i have taken some old style flak jackets from work (Marines by the way) and shot them with a .22lr. and i will tell you it will go though it. dont tell me to quote another movie because i am actually in the military and i generally know what im talking about when it come to this type of shit, unlike most people that seem to know everything and have done nothing that post on this site. everyone goes off of what they have heard and not many people have experienced it themselves. how about you get a flak and shoot it with a 22 and tell me what happens.

You ARE aware that kevlar is not a "plate," but is the material that flak jackets are often made out of? The armor that civilian police often wear consists of multiple layers of kevlar.

The problem with the argument here is that you have no agreement on the subject of discussion. A .22LR will certainly go through a vest with only four layers of kevlar, but it might not go through a vest with 30 layers.

A "flak jacket" could mean multiple things; it could be the whole set of body armor, complete with the lower layers of kevlar that are meant to stop stray shrapnel and low-velocity pistol rounds and the heavy, high-protection plates meant to stop rifle rounds, or it could simply be only the layers of kevlar. An "old style" flak jacket could easily just be that; a flak jacket, built to provide protection from flak and shrapnel. A more modern flak jacket will consist of multiple layers of kevlar. The "old style" jacket isn't going to stop a head-on bullet because that was never its purpose. A newer jacket might.

Before we all get our panties all bunched up, agree on the subject of discussion, make sure we are talking about the same standard, and then civilized discussion can follow.

[blackhatch46]

Originally Posted by waldo_ii

You ARE aware that kevlar is not a "plate," but is the material that flak jackets are often made out of? The armor that civilian police often wear consists of multiple layers of kevlar.

The problem with the argument here is that you have no agreement on the subject of discussion. A .22LR will certainly go through a vest with only four layers of kevlar, but it might not go through a vest with 30 layers.

A "flak jacket" could mean multiple things; it could be the whole set of body armor, complete with the lower layers of kevlar that are meant to stop stray shrapnel and low-velocity pistol rounds and the heavy, high-protection plates meant to stop rifle rounds, or it could simply be only the layers of kevlar. An "old style" flak jacket could easily just be that; a flak jacket, built to provide protection from flak and shrapnel. A more modern flak jacket will consist of multiple layers of kevlar. The "old style" jacket isn't going to stop a head-on bullet because that was never its purpose. A newer jacket might.

Before we all get our panties all bunched up, agree on the subject of discussion, make sure we are talking about the same standard, and then civilized discussion can follow.

why are you updating me on rifle plates. i wear the shit almost everyday and i have been for the last 6 yrs. im well aware of the type of armor and how plates are used. i was simply stating that the common police style vest would be penetrated in response to the other guy saying that a 22lr would only piss someone off. people often underestimate the 22lr round (along with the 9mm) and they usually have no experience to justify it.

[waldo_ii]

The way you worded your most recent argument could lead to multiple conclusions.

I said, it goes through flak jackets without plates. if you know what a flak jacket is it is what police usually wear and it lacks ceramic or kevlar plates. it is flexible and light to be more mobile. you usually add plates to flak armor to make it stop bullets like the ones we are issued. and i know this for a fact because i have taken some old style flak jackets from work (Marines by the way) and shot them with a .22lr. and i will tell you it will go though it. dont tell me to quote another movie because i am actually in the military and i generally know what im talking about when it come to this type of shit, unlike most people that seem to know everything and have done nothing that post on this site. everyone goes off of what they have heard and not many people have experienced it themselves. how about you get a flak and shoot it with a 22 and tell me what happens.

I have your words in the first layer of quotation, and the conclusions that one can come to after reading the quotation in the second layer. False conclusions are bold, conclusions that can be debated on due to definition are in italics.

Conclusions: Police wear flak jackets. Police flak jackets do not have plates. Plates are made up of ceramic or Kevlar. Flak jackets are flexible/light/mobile. Plates can be added to flak jackets to stop bullets that are issued to Marines or flak jackets issued to the marines have plates to stop nondescript bullets. Flak jackets can have plates.

Conclusions: I am from the Marines. I took an old Marine flak jacket and shot it with .22LR. The .22LR penetrated the jacket from the Marines.

When we combine two conclusions "flak jackets issued to the marines have plates" and "The .22LR penetrated the jacket from the Marines," you conclude that .22LR penetrates the plates in flak jackets that have plates. I feared that should this debate have continued, this misconception due to unclear wording would have lead to more useless argument. Plus, it degrades your credibility when outrageous statements are made, such as the false conclusion that is implied by the wording.

In the first quoted segment, I marked the phrase "Plates are made up of ceramic or Kevlar" as being false. Kevlar is a fiber produced by DuPont. It is very strong, which is why it is often used in high-quality cable, tires, hoses, and often times in body armor. However, Kevlar products are always similar in that they consist of many strands of Kevlar fibers, not in plates. From what I have read on the Interceptor as produced by DHB Industries (From what I have read online and heard in the media, the plates in the old Interceptor armor are still used in today's improved sets of body armor, just in different packaging), the plates are made of a ceramic material, and it is all held together by Kevlar. The plates themselves are not made of Kevlar.

The phrases marked as "debatable due to definition" are marked as such due to the conflict of definitions even by yourself.

• "if you know what a flak jacket is it is what police usually wear and it lacks ceramic or kevlar plates" implies that flak jackets do not have plates.
• "you usually add plates to flak armor to make it stop bullets like the ones we are issued" can imply that flak jackets can have plates.

Even still, there is no consensus on what armor is being discussed. There are many different manufacturers of body armor each with many different models. Saying "body armor with 30 layers of Kevlar will/will not stop .22LR" is different from saying "flak jackets do/do not stop .22LR."

[[R-COM]H.sta]

why are you not a mod yet?

[[R-DEV]ballard_44]

Speaking of that, the discussion is fine, but move it to the appropriate forum if you'd like to continue to talk about things that attempt to stop other things from killing you.