US SOCOM drops the MK16 SCAR

[[R-DEV]Ninja2dan]

Originally Posted by MonkeySoldier

Funny, I asked such thing on a different forum, where I was told (by a former Dutch KCT member) that he was taught back in '72 by the Norwegians themselves not to take a weapon inside a warm place (buildings, tents etc), but to keep it outside. So that seems, according to that man, a flaw of the troops themselves, and not the weapon.

The reason you are not supposed to bring a weapon inside "warm buildings" with you has nothing to do about icing problems. When a weapon system is in an environment that causes the full weapon to become cold throughout, bringing it inside a warm location like the inside of a heated structure or placing it inside your sleeping bag will cause the weapon to "sweat". Moisture will condense on the inside and outside of the weapon, even in places that moisture would normally not be. This sweating can cause rust and pitting of the weapon, and cause failures more often.

The weapon can eventually be brought inside, but it has to be done gradually. Think of it like treating frostbite, you can't just toss a heated blanket or warm water over the injured site. You have to gradually bring the temp back to normal or you risk losing the limb.

Originally Posted by [R-MOD]KP

As Bob mentioned, the gas regulator sometimes tends to change modes during firing, causing the bolt to not go far enough back to pick up another round - basically turning your fully-automatic 416 into a single-shot, bolt-operated rifle. A gas regulator that there was no need for to begin with, as far as I can see (though maybe the sneaky-beakies might find some use for it if they use suppressors). With thorough cleaning, the problem should be minimal.

That's the reason actually. The adjustable regulator allows better functioning with a suppressor and subsonic ammunition that tends not to fully cycle otherwise. Poor design doesn't keep the regulator locked into position as well as it should.

If you get the slightest bit of moisture in the weapon - say, if you keep the rifle by your side in a warm tent, then go outside, causing any condensation to freeze - the bolt tends to freeze in place so hard you can't even pry it open with a screwdriver (saw a guy try that trick once *cringe*). Only solution is to warm the rifle up and dry it completely, then assemble it again. Bit of a problem if you have have a full mag in, but no chambered round and have to cock it to get into the fight. Or the first shot fired doesn't get the bolt loose (never seen anyone try to actually fire their rifle to clear ice). This means the rifle will have to be stored outside the whole time.
Snow in the rifle can and will give you the same result. Bit of a problem in a country where it tends to snow in winter.
Apparently (so the instructors tell us) the gun oil we use tends to cause the rifle to freeze as well, meaning you have to fire it un-lubed in cold weather. Not good for wear and tear. Strange, too, considering that we lubed the AG3 as heck to keep it functioning in winter. The oil will keep condensation from forming and freezing, as it has a much lower freezing point than water. Will test this winter.

What type of lubricant do you guys use? Most forms of CLP (Cleaner, Lubricant, Preservative) are chemically designed to have a much lower freezing point that water, and work very well in extreme cold. The US military uses Break-Free CLP, which is also what I use for both personal range use and introduced for adoption by our local city/county LE agencies. This stuff is the shizznit, works like a charm.

Here is a quote directly from their site:

Specially formulated synthetic oils won't lose viscosity, dry out or stiffen up in extreme environments - such as cold, heat, dust, dirt, humidity and even salt air - keeping equipment in ready condition for months at a time.

Of course most countries will use their own choice of CLP products, nearly all of them should work well in cold temps without solidifying/freezing. It sounds like some of your instructors are talking out of their asses, lack real cold-weather experience, or have been drinking the bong water. That or your forces have some reaaaaaal crappy CLP.

The buttstock is rather wide, meaning you can experience problems with getting the rifle properly shouldered when wearing kit such as combat vests, body armour, rucksacks and so on. The "release handle" to extend/collapse it is also somewhat difficult to handle with thick mittens on, as it sinks into the buttstock instead of being external like on the M4 and similar weapons. The cap on the end of it also tends to come loose with wear - I've heard of people having it fall off when crawling and running about.

The over-sized stock reminds me a lot of the M60. Not sure if you ever used one, but those who have will most likely remember the problems faced when trying to keep the stock in your shoulder while wearing any type of body armor/frag vest, or rucksack. But from a huge badass like the 60, you'd expect to find a larger buttstock. On a soldier's individual battle rifle, things like that are just poor design.

Oh, and all the accessories like mag pouches, BFAs etc. were, from what I've heard, separate projects from the rifle itself, meaning that I'm currently issued one (!) MOLLE mag pouch (which doesn't work all that well with the CVS mounting system on the issued vest), and only the more professional units actually get their hands on BFAs. The rest of us either have to cock our rifles manually for every round or shout "bang!" a lot.

How long has your unit been using those weapon systems? Is it a problem with your Company/Battaltion/Brigade/etc not being issued the parts, or do they just not feel soldiers actually need that stuff? Common sense tells you not to issue a weapon system unless you have sufficient stockpiles of accessories and repair/maintenance parts. Someone really screwed up somewhere.

[KP]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Ninja2dan

The reason you are not supposed to bring a weapon inside "warm buildings" with you has nothing to do about icing problems. When a weapon system is in an environment that causes the full weapon to become cold throughout, bringing it inside a warm location like the inside of a heated structure or placing it inside your sleeping bag will cause the weapon to "sweat". Moisture will condense on the inside and outside of the weapon, even in places that moisture would normally not be. This sweating can cause rust and pitting of the weapon, and cause failures more often.

The weapon can eventually be brought inside, but it has to be done gradually. Think of it like treating frostbite, you can't just toss a heated blanket or warm water over the injured site. You have to gradually bring the temp back to normal or you risk losing the limb.

Yep, and the condensation will freeze when you go outside in the cold again. Condensation is formed because hot air can "hold" more moisture than cold air - which is why a jungle has a much higher humidity than, say, the North Pole. When the hot air comes in contact with, for example, a cold tent ceiling, or your cold weapon, it cools off, meaning it can't "hold" as much moisture (it's over-saturated), and it "gets rid of" it by means of it turning into water and condensing on surfaces - like the inside of the tent or your weapon.

That's the reason actually. The adjustable regulator allows better functioning with a suppressor and subsonic ammunition that tends not to fully cycle otherwise. Poor design doesn't keep the regulator locked into position as well as it should.

That's what I figured.

What type of lubricant do you guys use? Most forms of CLP (Cleaner, Lubricant, Preservative) are chemically designed to have a much lower freezing point that water, and work very well in extreme cold. The US military uses Break-Free CLP, which is also what I use for both personal range use and introduced for adoption by our local city/county LE agencies. This stuff is the shizznit, works like a charm.

Here is a quote directly from their site:
Of course most countries will use their own choice of CLP products, nearly all of them should work well in cold temps without solidifying/freezing. It sounds like some of your instructors are talking out of their asses, lack real cold-weather experience, or have been drinking the bong water. That or your forces have some reaaaaaal crappy CLP.

We use Break-Free CLP as well, and, as I said, it worked a treat in the AG3. Personally, I don't trust our instructors on the NCO course in the slightest. But I can assure you, there was no room for experimenting and initiative there - do as you're told was the idea. Plain stupidity, and that was also the feedback they got from us students at the end of those six months. I have every intention of proving them wrong by damn near soaking my working parts in oil to show them this winter.

The over-sized stock reminds me a lot of the M60. Not sure if you ever used one, but those who have will most likely remember the problems faced when trying to keep the stock in your shoulder while wearing any type of body armor/frag vest, or rucksack. But from a huge badass like the 60, you'd expect to find a larger buttstock. On a soldier's individual battle rifle, things like that are just poor design.

Yep, and a fair few people buy their own replacement ones, even though that's frowned upon by the higher-ups and FLO (the Defence Logistics Organization, responsible for acquiring just about everything, including new weapons and kit).

How long has your unit been using those weapon systems? Is it a problem with your Company/Battaltion/Brigade/etc not being issued the parts, or do they just not feel soldiers actually need that stuff? Common sense tells you not to issue a weapon system unless you have sufficient stockpiles of accessories and repair/maintenance parts. Someone really screwed up somewhere.

First deliveries were taken in 2008, and first units started using it late that year, IIRC. It's all been a bit of a farce, really. Everyone wanted the shiny new weapons, and so they were rushed out to units before everything was in place. No approved BFA in the system as of now, AFAIK, but I'm going to have to check around to confirm that. At least we don't have them issued ATM. Most units used AG3 mag pouches for HK mags to begin with, and some (like us on the NCO course) used the utility pouch. Meaning we had no actual pouch for utilities, because someone, in their infinite stupidity, wouldn't issue two of them to each soldier. The mag pouch I have issued now - and the ones issued to the other class on my NCO course - are MOLLE kit anyway, meaning they don't attach all that well to our combat vest, which uses something called CVS.

My comments in bold.

[BloodBane611]

And here I've been talking up the norweigan army everywhere I go....

Well, I suppose the same idiots are in charge everywhere, huh? Sounds like a crappy situation all round there KP. Is there any way in which the 416 is superior to the AG3?

[KP]

Well, the ammo is lighter, being 5.56, so you can carry more rounds for the same weight. Reloads are quicker, mainly because of the bolt is held back when you're empty (which is a nice feature indeed - wouldn't mind having that on the AG3). Accuracy is about the same until you start shooting at longer ranges (though there is more bullet drop with the 5.56). The Picatinny rails make for easy attachment of accessories - just don't mount optics on the handguard. It's modular, meaning you can replace pistol grips (like me) and buttstocks at will. It's got less recoil than the AG3, and is generally easier for your average Johnny Rifleman to shoot with.

As I said, a decent weapon, but not outstanding.