Corps chooses H&K to make SAW replacement

[JohnnyTheIED]

I see its more about flame than anything here...

"Join the army then talk!"

then

"I'm not in the army"


"Show me sources!" Then they talk with no sources.

This is non-sense. Stop trying to pretend you're experts. I'm just a random guy giving his random opinion. Its not a congressional budget I don't need sources to prove my opinion.

"The new problem however, is that it is no longuer a SAW gun but a Marksman one."

"Really? Got a source for that? "

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Jaymz

Really? Got a source for that?

Do you even understand what you read? This sentence was in direct link with the one said before, It was saying the new problem by changing the SAW m249 to a Hk416 is that its no longuer a SAW but a marksman position. How do I need a source to prove hk416 with a box mag is not a SAW but a rifle, a marksman rifle.

You're too busy quoting 20 subjects to even have one make sense.

If you're not even in the army stop acting like you are, thats the worse. Shouting at people they are wrong because they are not what you're not either doesn't make you look very smart.

Got sources for that? Sure google up basement general.

[JohnnyTheIED]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]GeZe

JohnnyTheIED, join the army, complete your training, then you can talk.

I haven't completed my training yet, but my bullshit meter is already off the charts on this one.

How about following your own ignorant and oppressive comment? You ain't even a Private yet you talk like a grunt. I've seen neighborhoods harder then your summer boot camp.

I've been in the reserve before you even discovered PR.

edit sry for double post: It was 7+ yrs ago, how old is PR just for the fun? lol

[GeZe]

Everything I have been taught so far in the army, and everything that I have learned by talking with other people in my unit who have been deployed to Afghanistan is that the C9 is not just an important part of the section, it is the core of the section. A CF section's C9s are 50% of that sections fire power. Without it, a section would have a serious loss of effectiveness.

[Jaymz]

Originally Posted by JohnnyTheIED

I see its more about flame than anything here...

Nope. It's a debate about the USMC's current IAR trials.

Originally Posted by JohnnyTheIED

This is non-sense. Stop trying to pretend you're experts. I'm just a random guy giving his random opinion. Its not a congressional budget I don't need sources to prove my opinion.

I'm not pretending to be anything. I just think your opinion, that came across as a few statements, should be thought over.

Originally Posted by JohnnyTheIED

Do you even understand what you read? This sentence was in direct link with the one said before, It was saying the new problem by changing the SAW m249 to a Hk416 is that its no longuer a SAW but a marksman position. How do I need a source to prove hk416 with a box mag is not a SAW but a rifle, a marksman rifle.

No, it's still an automatic weapon and has absolutely nothing in common with a marksman rifle.

The SAW terminology in M249 stands for "Squad-Based Automatic Weapon"

source : Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW), M249 Light Machine Gun

While used as a US designation to refer to their license produced version of the FN Minimi, it can be a general term. Be it MG3's in Pakistan, PKM's in Russia, Minimi's in the UK, they are all automatic weapons used at the squad level.

IAR is a new concept (or so they say..), standing for "Infantry Automatic Rifle". It's going to be a squad based automatic weapon designed for fast assaults. Not even in the least, a marksman rifle.

Source : So long, SAW? - MarineCorpsTimes.com

"Marine infantry units soon may replace their light machine guns with new automatic rifles designed to help gunners move faster on assaults.

Weapons officials at Marine Corps Systems Command in Quantico, Va., are testing magazine-fed weapons from at least six gun makers in a search for a lighter alternative to the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon, which weighs close to 17 pounds unloaded.

At the squad level, “the biggest hindrance to being able to effectively fire and maneuver is the weight of the SAW,” said Patrick Cantwell, capability integration officer for the Infantry Automatic Rifle program at SysCom.

The winning IAR design — which the Corps wants to weigh no more than 12.5 pounds — could begin replacing the SAW in infantry squads as early as next year.

“We see this being the automatic rifleman’s primary weapon,” Cantwell said. “We obviously want it as soon as possible, but we are looking at sometime in 2009.”

The M249 has been in service with the Corps since the mid-1980s. The standard model weighs about 22 pounds when loaded with a 200-round belt of 5.56mm ammunition.

Despite its weight, the weapon spits out up to 750 rounds per minute, providing small units with a tremendous rate of sustained automatic fire.

Originally Posted by JohnnyTheIED

If you're not even in the army stop acting like you are, thats the worse. Shouting at people they are wrong because they are not what you're not either doesn't make you look very smart.

Got sources for that? Sure google up basement general.

Seriously? You think I'm playing the pretentious card after clearly stating I'm not a soldier? I think having spent the last 5 years of my life on a development team alongside a plethora of military personnel with whom I exchange information on a daily basis has earned me the right to call bullshit on your statements/opinions.

I'm just baffled more than anything else really. You've stated your were in the reserves, I'm assuming that would be Canadian Reserves like Geze? Well...like he said....a Canadian infantry section and it's defensive/agressive tactics revolves around the two C9's they have.

[Masaq]

Originally Posted by JohnnyTheIED

...Its not a congressional budget I don't need sources to prove my opinion...

...Got sources for that? Sure google up basement general.

I couldn't have made it much clearer when I drew up this post: http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f22-...e-sources.html

Them's the rules in this forum subsection. Follow 'em or get outta the debate. Same goes for anyone else quoting anything that's being portrayed as factual. And no, Johnny, your post was not phrased in such a way to be "just my opinion".

I strongly suggest reading the following monograph, it's 76 pages long but if you want an informed debate on the topic it's well worth reading. It's completely up to date; published last November. It's out of Ft. Leavenworth, and authored by one Major Ehrhart, who wrote it as part of a degree. (Almost certainly not his first, would be my hunch.)

He actually agrees that there needs to be further development of mid-range accurate fire... but absolutely no-where does he state that this needs to be at the complete removal of the squad automatic weapon. I humbly suggest that his assessment is a better one than yours, and he has the advantage of having listed his many sources

Increasing Small Arms Lethality in Afghanistan: Taking Back the Infantry Half Kilometer

[ReapersWarrior]

in a platoon sized unit there are still most likely going to be 2 MG teams with 240B's for extra fire support and suppression.

I don't see the problem with switching to a lighter weapon for Automatic riflemen. Its a lot lighter which is a big deal especially if your squad is moving a lot and just because the mag only holds 30 rounds doesn't mean you cant lay down a ton of suppressing fire. reloading is very quick and easy with an M16 so i cant imagine it being any diffrent with this new weapon.

[Palehorse1]

so...

The Ares Shrike failed it's trials then or are they still on the test schedule rotation? I know it made the Navy list but assumed it was on the total deploy list hence the question for the Marines.

ARES Defense

[HardcoreCook]

Originally Posted by ReapersWarrior

in a platoon sized unit there are still most likely going to be 2 MG teams with 240B's for extra fire support and suppression.

I don't see the problem with switching to a lighter weapon for Automatic riflemen. Its a lot lighter which is a big deal especially if your squad is moving a lot and just because the mag only holds 30 rounds doesn't mean you cant lay down a ton of suppressing fire. reloading is very quick and easy with an M16 so i cant imagine it being any diffrent with this new weapon.

Well, your average soldier will cary around 4 pouches of 2 M16 mags.
How would this person deal with ammo? Carry a shi-load in his backpack? Get pouches of 3 mags? I dunno, but it just seems to make more sense to have a belt fed machine gun to be the squad automatic fire because its meant to serve that sole pursopse from the ground up.
It was for the exact same reason the mg42 was superior over the Britsh Japanese and other mag fed machine guns.

Though a new enviroment may call for a new kind of gun.
In Iraq, i'd say you dont neccesarly need an over 9000 rounds per minute, but i surely wouldnt wanna have a maggazine fed weapon because you just dont have enough rounds to keep your ennemy at close(r) suppresed. However, a drum mag could do wonders.
Anyway.
In Afghanistan your ennemy is over 200 meters away. Sometimes even 500. A machine gun based on an assault rifle probably wont cut it, because the ROF might be lower when compared to other machine guns. This, however, can be fixed.
So it really depends on the range you need the gun for and it also depends on how much ammo you have/ wanna save.

[Solid Knight]

I have to ask, aside from being open bolt and allowing it to cool, what's the real difference between this and just giving everyone a full-auto M4A1? They would effectively be the same weapon as far as the enemy is concerned.

[JohnnyTheIED]

You're right Masaq, I obviously didn't knew the deepness of this sub-section.

Most places I've visited, politics & military subjects we're not taken on as they we're more qualified than military Generals...

I understand however that there is a lot of soldiers or "to be" soldiers around here.. making their opinion quite one sided on the subject.

I've been around high ranks and I can definitively tell you for sure that they do not think like your average soldier. They see the bigger picture and most of the time are ready to do the small sacrifices to get a better over-all picture.

That's a thing that pisses off soldiers most of the time, but its for the best of the army as a battle group.

That being said, I think it's safe to say that the US army command knew more than us all to start with and that their decision was the best. No sources will ever beat that. To say otherwise would be over-estimating ourselves and rendering any debate useless.

If you're an enemy receiving heavy suppessive fire on your location, you will either risk death sticking you head up (with rounds going over your head and round your position, pinging off your cover), or not fire or run away.

lol, That or holding your position while calling in a flanking maneuver on the MG nest totally blowing out his cover with that supressive fire. What kind of "enemy" operates alone?