project reality header
Go Back   Project Reality Forums > Off-Topic Forums > Off-Topic Discussion > Military Technology
16 Apr 2014, 00:00:00 (PRT)
Register Forum RulesDeveloper Blogs Project Reality Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Military Technology Discussion on military hardware.

Contact Support Team Frequently Asked Questions Register today!

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-18-2010, 02:14 PM   #61
Wraith
Retired PR Developer

Wraith's Avatar
Default Re: Corps chooses H&K to make SAW replacement

Long story short, I have a buddy that was trained to fly f-15's then f-22's and is now being assigned back to f-15's to fly the stealth eagle. The fact is that the f-35 has a major advantage in simulations due to the propulsion, which if you have been following the project at all you would know has not even been finalized.


This thread has been totally de-railed.


WTF happened to my magical mod powers..... GAZ, HELP!.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 1 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 1 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Wraith is offline Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2010, 08:04 PM   #62
Gaz
PR Retrobate
Supporting Member

Gaz's Avatar
Default Re: Corps chooses H&K to make SAW replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
Long story short, I have a buddy that was trained to fly f-15's then f-22's and is now being assigned back to f-15's to fly the stealth eagle. The fact is that the f-35 has a major advantage in simulations due to the propulsion, which if you have been following the project at all you would know has not even been finalized.


This thread has been totally de-railed.


WTF happened to my magical mod powers..... GAZ, HELP!.
Guys, please get right back on topic, or do not post.

*CURRENTLY AFK - MIL STUFF*

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 1 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"By profession I am a
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 1 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
, and take pride in that fact. But I am prouder, infinitely prouder, to be a father". - Gen Douglas MacAurthur.
-Proud wearer of motorcycle helmets since 1998.
Gaz is offline Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2010, 10:30 PM   #63
hartbilt
Banned
Default Re: Corps chooses H&K to make SAW replacement

The HK IAR is not meant to be a replacement for the M249, it is a substitution for Marine Corp. Infantry FireTeams and Light Armored Reconnaissance (LAR) Battalions.

"In the coming years, the Corps plans to reduce the number of SAWs in the Corps from 11,381 weapons to about 8,000, officials said, causing a variety of changes for grunts."


Marines to test, evaluate 4 auto-rifle models - MarineCorpsTimes.com
hartbilt is offline Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2010, 10:49 PM   #64
JohnnyTheIED
Banned
Default Re: Corps chooses H&K to make SAW replacement

Looks to me the Military's problem with the current SAW is that it wastes way to much ammo for the support it brings.

Any strategist could go on for hours about the advantage of having a few well placed shots doing the same job at 200 sprayed rounds, sometimes even better.

The new problem however, is that it is no longuer a SAW gun but a Marksman one.

They did the same thing after Vietnam with the m16's. They removed the full automatic capability because soldiers would just empty up mags over the nme's head or even just shooting air. Creating a huge ammo problem and not fixing anything.

That problem did not resurface in Iraq until as of lately apparentely, the stocks prolly started going thinner and that does scare the crap out of big military heads.

Obviously their decision was to scrap the Infantry SAW and keep it only where "uber spray" firepower was needed: Guard towers/VCPs and VIP locations.

As a soldiers I'd be pissed, It's removing that extra edge that makes a soldier feel confident about his capabilities (even if it means wasting goods and slowing down the squad)

As a military strategist (lets face it, the only valid point in terms of military operations) I'd be creaming my pants. No more rambo bullshit. Straight up professional master gunners, Marksmen.

Wouldn't surprise me they come up with the news the Standard rifle for the upcoming years will be a single shot hk416/417. And that only experienced and qualified gunners will be getting automatic models. As a strategist you want your soldiers to work together and feel strong together. Removing the SAW is only the first step to removing the Chuck Norris artists.

And its quite intelligent, because only spec ops and special occasions requires extra quick firepower.

A dozen guys firing together on single shot is more accurate and effective than a dozen guys spraying down. They will be able to operate longer, with better communication and logistics.

All that in theory of course. Military strategists often fail to recognize/remember the human factor. But in this case however I think they did the opposite.

The m249 was more mental than anything. A spray barrage of 5.56 isn't that much effective considering the modern urban and remote battlefield. Urban being the kill zone for "rebels". Remote being the kill zone for Soldiers. Mountains, forests, etc. Where the bad guys hide.

On a long range, a stable battlefield, nothing beats it. Sustained quality firepower. On a urban/remote battleground, absolutely useless. 1 corner, concrete slab or rock to hide behind and your superb firepower is rendered useless, You are then vulnerable to flanking maneuvers and you have to re-deploy constantly.

Understanding this is the key to appreciate that decision they made


Have a good evening
JohnnyTheIED is offline
Last edited by JohnnyTheIED; 03-18-2010 at 11:08 PM..
Reply With Quote
Old 03-18-2010, 11:53 PM   #65
Dev1200

Dev1200's Avatar
Default Re: Corps chooses H&K to make SAW replacement

So whats the point with having an automatic assault rifle? >_>


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 1 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Dev1200 is offline Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2010, 03:21 AM   #66
Jaymz
Retired PR Developer
Supporting Member

Jaymz's Avatar
Default Re: Corps chooses H&K to make SAW replacement

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyTheIED View Post
The new problem however, is that it is no longuer a SAW gun but a Marksman one.
Really? Got a source for that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyTheIED View Post
Obviously their decision was to scrap the Infantry SAW and keep it only where "uber spray" firepower was needed: Guard towers/VCPs and VIP locations.
Yeah, obviously . Perhaps a source just to make sure though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyTheIED View Post
As a military strategist (lets face it, the only valid point in terms of military operations) I'd be creaming my pants. No more rambo bullshit. Straight up professional master gunners, Marksmen.

Wouldn't surprise me they come up with the news the Standard rifle for the upcoming years will be a single shot hk416/417. And that only experienced and qualified gunners will be getting automatic models.
All military forces train their troops on rifles before machineguns. You're saying they need to be expert qualified on a rifle before being trained on weapons designed for area suppression?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyTheIED View Post
And its quite intelligent, because only spec ops and special occasions requires extra quick firepower.
No it's not intelligent, not at all.

Now, I'm not a soldier, so perhaps a soldier can verify this for me. But what you say there goes against pretty much everything I have learned about military strategy and against all lessons that were learned from both world wars. That being, that the machine gun is the most important weapon in an infantry section. Most, if not all, forces base their infantry squads around machine guns and their capabilities.

That is, MG gunners provide suppression that restricts enemy movement. Hence the term "pinned"...pinned down...suppressed! Allowing riflemen to flank.

Need HE projection because 5.56 isn't blasting through concrete? (which it doesn't need to for suppression) well....you've got two grenadiers in your squad.

Need accurate fire? You've got a designated marksman.

You're pretty much saying that everything about the modern military squad/section doesn't work despite the fact that it's very concept is derived from over a hundred years of gunpowder propelled warfare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyTheIED View Post
A dozen guys firing together on single shot is more accurate and effective than a dozen guys spraying down. They will be able to operate longer, with better communication and logistics.
How on earth does that make sense? When is there going to be a dozen MG gunners "spraying down". Operate Longer? Better Logistics? When all your riflemen are firing together all the time to make up for the lake in volume of fire, they'll be flying through the mags I imagine. Better Communication? With everyone firing instead of just 2-3 MG gunners?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 1 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 1 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"Clear the battlefield and let me see, All the profit from our victory." - Greg Lake
Jaymz is offline Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2010, 03:30 AM   #67
GeZe
PR Artwork Team

GeZe's Avatar
Default Re: Corps chooses H&K to make SAW replacement

JohnnyTheIED, join the army, complete your training, then you can talk.

I haven't completed my training yet, but my bullshit meter is already off the charts on this one.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 1 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 1 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
GeZe is offline Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2010, 09:24 AM   #68
sakils2
Banned

sakils2's Avatar
Default Re: Corps chooses H&K to make SAW replacement

Keeping your enemies heads down is an efficient tactic. You don't want the baddies firing back at you. If you put down enough lead they won't be able to respond and they'll have to find another position or flee the area.

Atleast, thats how I understand it.
sakils2 is offline Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2010, 10:28 AM   #69
[R-MOD]Mongolian_dude
Forum Moderator

[R-MOD]Mongolian_dude's Avatar
Default Re: Corps chooses H&K to make SAW replacement

I am scared of a moving bullet. If I am in within horizontal 90degrees of a bullets trajectory, the associated fear will likely change my behavioural patterns. This will often result in hiding followed by becoming static.
There is a direct correlation between the relevant increase in bullets moving towards me and the increase of fear sensation.


...mongol...

Military Lawyers engaged in fierce action

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 1 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
[R-MOD]Mongolian_dude is offline Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2010, 01:15 PM   #70
Wraith
Retired PR Developer

Wraith's Avatar
Default Re: Corps chooses H&K to make SAW replacement

Does this make sense:

Machine Gun = Area Suppression Weapon
Area Suppression = Lots of bullets
5.56 < 7.62

So the main military decided to go to a lighter, smaller bullet so that the heavy gunners could carry more. Same thing with the m-14 to m-16 switch, lighter gun more ammo. In the field is it better to have massive amounts of lead down range quickly or sustained rate of fire of time? The other side of the issue is the perceived or actual stopping and penetrating power of 5.56 vs 7.62. A good resource The Box O' Truth - The Box O' Truth although not totally scientific he gets his points across well.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 1 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 1 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Wraith is offline Reply With Quote
Reply


Tags
chooses, corps, handk, make, replacement
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:16 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin. ©vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1
All Content Copyright ©2004 - 2014, Project Reality.