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Old 02-01-2009, 04:57 AM   #31
CAS_117
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Default Re: Are attack helicopters overrated?

Quote:
I think the A-10 should be the next generation chopper. I mean GAU-8, give coordinates, he comes to strafe down on the coords, bang, every1's gone. That eliminates the gun on a chopper.

Hellfires? Who needs them when you have Hydras on an A-10 :P

A-10 ftw.
Quote:
Its the large-scale maneuver warfare that attack choppers were designed to operate in that has become obsolete. Modern aircraft, sensors, and precision weapons make armor unsurvivable when you don't control the air. Who needs helicopter gunships when the enemy armor formations have been wiped out already. The attack helicopter's role can be performed by a UCAV that stays in the air 24hrs at a time and is flown by pilots half way around the world sitting in a nice comfy leather office chair; aka the "chair-force"
That only half true. Again That is all this talk of "Rock, Paper, Scissors".

I mean honestly, try and actually think of all the ways you can hurt someone with a stick. Doesn't even have to be a sharp stick. You should get at least 3. Now compare that to an Apache longbow with MLRS support.

All those weapons are useless if there is poor intel, organization, or training. In my completely unprofessional opinion intel is the most important (see Vietcong). Most armies seem to lose because they don't use their sticks right, not because they aren't big enough or don't have enough of them.

Quote:
Why in the world would you want to take an expensive aircraft down low and expose it to all kinds of nasty ground fire when you can use any number of precision munitions for the same job?
Artillery can do a much better job than both fixed wing, and rotary wing aircraft under certain circumstances. However the logistical problem for both is significant. In Operation Anaconda, CAS was a total mess. Fires were being being received up to 30 minutes after the fact in some cases, and missed fairly often. But the fact is that CAS was there for the duration of the engagement, and required little in the way of logistical tasking for the forces its meant to support.

Operation Anaconda

That said however, moving large howitzers + significant amounts of ammunition into position anywhere near the objectives in that kind of terrain was an impossibility. Even worse when you aren't in complete control of the airspace. Several times throughout Anaconda the airspace was shut down for the transport choppers. That means NO ammo, NO movement of the guns. Then don't forget organizing either security or blocking forces for the guns themselves. Then in mountainous terrain the rounds might need line of sight. Just too hard to do in the kind of war we've been fighting lately. Artillery performs best in tandem with slower, big army engagements.

Battle of Ar Rutba

In the battle of Ar Rutba (more or less the opening shots of GWII), ODA 524 and 525 were perched on top of a hill outside Iraq. They saw an entire mechanized Iraq division in front of them. The set up was an improvement over the situation in Afghanistan in a few ways. First off the command and control node (called the joint fires element) was not located in Saudia Arabia as it was in A-stan, but was located at the SF command center, which sped up communications indefinitely. The entire country had been split into various sectors. One for the North, South, East, and West respectfully. The arrangement allowed for CAS to be delivered within 3 minutes max at ANY target in the western desert. After giving the priority CAS request (all planes are now needed for the forseeable future), the entire US air force basically pounded the Iraqis into complete submission with no coalition losses.

Yawn

The difference between Anaconda and Ar Rutba? In this case the organization of the CAS. The basic goal of CAS is to get the guy with the field glasses, map, and radio as many explosions as possible fast. To do this you need as few moving parts as possible in the whole command structure. The inherent problems with Fire support organization was seen in both these situations. In this case, the problems with howtzers were not reduced enough to make use of them, meaning only mortars with small amounts of ammo could be used.

As usual, TLDR

CAS: Harder to organize, smaller logistical footprint.

Field Arty: Usually easier to organize since generally in same command structure. Larger logistical footprint.

Quote:
Hell if you have boots on the ground feeding you the position of the target you don't even need an aircraft, just call in some GPS artillery gun/rocket fire.
After speaking to an officer at N SASK R, he had actually crossed out the "Tank hunting team" chapter and replaced it with the "getting picked up on Thermal imaging and getting blown away by a barrage of 125mm shells and coaxial weapons on tanks traveling 30 kph, 4km away team". There is a basic problem fighting a high tempo mechanized war as an infantryman. When you see one tank, there's probably at least a platoon of tanks right behind it. And if you move, shoot, or even breathe too fast, you get picked up on thermals and you and your buddies are dead.
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Old 02-01-2009, 06:41 AM   #32
Solid Knight
Default Re: Are attack helicopters overrated?

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Hellfires? Who needs them when you have Hydras on an A-10 :P
Who needs a long-range, high-precision, guided, anti-tank missile when you've got a short range, unguided, anti-personnel/soft-target rocket?
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Old 02-01-2009, 08:16 AM   #33
Alex6714

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Default Re: Are attack helicopters overrated?

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Originally Posted by Engineer View Post
Do you think that attack choppers are the only things that possess this kind of power? Like it would be some magical equipment that can only be fitted in a flying chopper, instead of anything else?

If attack choppers would be that useful, every army in the world would only have pilots and choppers to play with.

And the second you turn up your magic radar shit probably hits the fan. But these 'terrorists' dont have radar, nor credible AA. So it is easy to think they are immune to everything and will track 128 AK-47's on ground simultaneously, and even destroy them all under a minute!
I guess you missed the part were I said choppers arenĀ“t the only thing that play a part....

Each thing has its own use, if the radar/a has been taken out then the tanks are going to get raped.

But if you are assuming your sending the attack heli in the middle of a full scale jets flying around, aa spamming the air etc then of course it will fail.

"Today's forecast calls for 30mm HE rain with a slight chance of hellfires"

"oh, they're fire and forget all right...they're fired then they forget where the target is"
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Old 02-01-2009, 08:25 AM   #34
Engineer

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Default Re: Are attack helicopters overrated?

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Originally Posted by Alex6714 View Post
But if you are assuming your sending the attack heli in the middle of a full scale jets flying around, aa spamming the air etc then of course it will fail.
And I thought this was the point of this thread.
"would attack helicopters be effective in a war with a modern army?"
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Old 02-01-2009, 08:31 AM   #35
Alex6714

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Default Re: Are attack helicopters overrated?

Answer is yes, when used properly.

"Today's forecast calls for 30mm HE rain with a slight chance of hellfires"

"oh, they're fire and forget all right...they're fired then they forget where the target is"
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Old 02-01-2009, 09:17 AM   #36
Cassius

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Default Re: Are attack helicopters overrated?

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Originally Posted by Alex6714 View Post
What is the range of this tank?
If you mean the leopard roughly the same as American and Nato tanks, seen as they all use the Rheinmetall 120 cannon.

|TG|cap_Kilgore

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Old 02-01-2009, 10:44 AM   #37
$kelet0r

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Default Re: Are attack helicopters overrated?

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Originally Posted by Alex6714 View Post
Answer is yes, when used properly.
When used properly is the caveat though. Given any situation without: total air dominance, or an enemy armed with no mobile anti air systems or even an enemy with obsolete optics on their armoured vehicles, an attack helicopter would never even see combat if you wanted them to survive. The problem with Attack helicopters is that they require perfect conditions to survive - like a cold war tank rush in an area that intelligence has provided to you or a war against hostiles armed with nothing heavier than Kords or RPGs. Whereas fixed wing aircraft or heavy armour is much more versatile with more bang for your buck so to speak. So the answer is yes only in exacting conditions, otherwise it is resoundingly no. The sheer cost of them makes them pointless toys - more butterfly than killer bee on a battlefield.
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Old 02-01-2009, 12:49 PM   #38
cplgangster

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Default Re: Are attack helicopters overrated?

lets just think of it this way, do we really want to find out if they are effective enough against a modern army as that would mean sum pretty messed up war also, we can discuss and debate all we like but we are never going to get to clear and definitive answer with out it actually happening but in theory attack helicopters can be efective but also they can be un effective it all depends on the situation in hand.

FuzzySquirrel =US=:And the point is me sneekin up on a U.S tank IF i had c4 or a mine they would have been dead
[R-DEV]AfterDune: And we all agree, that is pretty.. pretty bad-ass!
Darth.Skylinei remember this one time i was running to the living room, so i decided to jump to get me there faster (yeah vBF2 style haha) - but then i hit my head on the top part of the door
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Old 02-01-2009, 01:32 PM   #39
[R-MOD]Mongolian_dude
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Default Re: Are attack helicopters overrated?

"Whats better, Vitamin C or penicillin ?"
Two different tools for two different needs, trying to achive the same overall objective. Both being teblets, we make the mistake in thinking that they can be compared in terms of achieving the same task.
It would be silly in thinking it'd be better to stop making one to make more of the other, as we need them both.


...mongol...

Military Lawyers engaged in fierce action

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Old 02-01-2009, 01:57 PM   #40
Hitman.2.5
Default Re: Are attack helicopters overrated?

IMO no
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddie View Post
As for the AA threat, I believe the British Apache has HIDAS, a defensive aide suite which will dispense chaff/flare for radar/heat guided missiles and send a series of commands to missiles with laser lock. The ability for the Apache AH1 to operate out of small arms fire range but within the 'SAM belt' and still remain effective as eyes and fist for the ground troops is amazing.

As for small arms fire, the Apache can supposedly take rounds up to 23mm and has almost two of each major component:

Engine
Electronics bay
Pilot..
Also a WAH64 Mk1 Apache doesent need to be near the risk of AAA if An APC or a AAA Vehicle comes within 5 miles of it the Dragon will know.

Derpist
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