M107 the U.S. newly adopted Sniper Rifle

[Omniassiah]

Seen that gun in action over in Iraq. Its don't know what the shooter was firing but he punched through the walls pretty effectivey at targets with the assistance of a thermal sight(spotter had the thermal sight think it was off of a javelin not sure though). They thought a Bradley was in the area when the shots started to penetrate the wall. They ran down the street we were overlooking and it just went down hill with my M249 chiming in. Think the range was only around 500m or so.

[uglygun]

Originally Posted by worst 3

i dont think this will replace the m24 for real snipers (as in they guys the are sneaky) the army got ride of it semi auto snipers for a reason not becuse of acuracy but becuse the bulet being ejected would give away there position to a trained sniper (that is bad) so that is y they now use bolt guns the sniper can slowly and quitly take out the caseing. i think it would be used for sharp shoters in a sqad or some thing but not anti snipeing missions.

crap i miss interpreted the post title, thought it was replacement sor but if that is waht u ment im not

There are some inaccuracies with these comments.

The nature of a semiauto to toss shells in the air, potentially giving away a sniper's position, is only partially correct.

In the past the real reason why semiautos are avoided is because they have simply been less reliable and a general pain in the ass to maintain. A bolt action is simply a more durable and easier to maintain weapon when in the field with the unknowns.

This is mostly with respect to trying to accurize an M14 and keep it shooting. An M14 has to have it's action carefully bed to the stock so that it allows for little interference between the stock and the barrel and action. The older M21s would shoot loose from their bedding with time and in high moisture environments the wood was known to swell. It was problematic and was part of the reason for the move to the fiberglas stock of the M25.

The Army is currently entertaining bids for new semiauto precision rifles though. The Army Marksmanship Unit is currently using Armalite AR10s and doing well with them. Rumor has it that the things have been deployed overseas for further real world testing but I have yet to read of it being 100% confirmed. The AR10(a relative of the AR15/M16, along with the SR25) is much easier to build up into an accurized rifle, not needing any consideration to bedding the action, the thing is infinitely more versatile to mount optics on, and the barrels are a straight forward build as well.

Between the Navy having the MK11 ModO which is a tuned and modified Knights SR25, the Marines getting ready to aquire a similar such rifle by Knights, and the Army looking at several such critters, the days of the semiauto are likely on the horizon.

The bolt actions will stay in inventory much like the M14s and other war horses of era's gone by but the semis are growing in popularity.

Originally Posted by Omniassiah

Seen that gun in action over in Iraq. Its don't know what the shooter was firing but he punched through the walls pretty effectivey at targets with the assistance of a thermal sight(spotter had the thermal sight think it was off of a javelin not sure though). .

What kind of material was the wall made of and any idea on just what kind of thermal sight?

I ask because thermal sights have limited ability to see through material that is not transparent to heat sources. It would be possible to completely mask a person from an IR sight by simply hanging a sheet of glass with a temperature equal to that of the ambient air temperature between the position of the target and the position of the viewer with the thermal device.

Unless the medium is in direct contact with a heat source and is conducting that heat so that a person on the opposite side can detect that heat while using their thermal device, it would be next to impossible to tell the location of somebody on the opposite side of a wall.

Several people in a room might raise the ambient temperature of the room so that it has a higher IR signature of near by walls, which would indicate that the room is occupied, but it would be a SWAG as to determining where somebody is inside the room.

[Omniassiah]

couldn't tell you on the sight, i wasn't using it and it wasn't apart of the normal equipment. thought it was thermal from the way the guy was telling how many feet to the left or right of the windows to shoot. I'll try and track down the spotter if he hasn't disappeared too deep into the woods of WV.

As for the wall it was the standard Iraqi limestone brick wall. approx 6in thick of brick and plaster. they aren't overlly tough to punch through.

[Mad Max]

Don't they have different ammunition types for these things? I'm sure they do. I've seen explosive tipped rounds for taking out light vehicles and radar installations and whatever, then you get the simple BMG rounds which just rip through anything pretty much, and there's an armour peircing round too which is used against armoured vehicles to fire at the fuel tanks or engines to disable them. I think they use the explosive ones against stationary aircraft too to disable/destroy them.

Also, I don't think you can engage an infantry target with anything but the BMG rounds, even then I think there's a ROE somewhere in Geneva saying they have to be running or something or posing an immediate threat to you or friendlies... I may be confised there mind.

I've not looked at that video, and I don't particularly want to, but from what is described it sounds like they're using the explosive tipped rounds on them... Very nasty if they are, and also very illegal. Last time I heard it was against Geneva to use explosive tipped rounds against infantry targets. Russia still do mind as they never signed it haha, which is why they have RPG warheads for anti-personell rolls.

P.S. Russian 7.62mm and higher easily penetrate walls and stuff. Nato stuff seems to lack in this department for the rifle rounds for some reason. Think it's because of less powder. Anyway an SVD or an AK-47 will penetrate a wall easily and kill someone on the other side. Just .50 is more reliable and will travel through it straighter because of the heavier round.

[Omniassiah]

Originally Posted by Mad Max

.

Also, I don't think you can engage an infantry target with anything but the BMG rounds, even then I think there's a ROE somewhere in Geneva saying they have to be running or something or posing an immediate threat to you or friendlies... I may be confised there mind.

Yeah .50 cal rifles and most machine guns are classified as Anti-material weapons according to the geneva convention. Its a shame that canteens(classified as material) are always on the back side of a solider

Originally Posted by Mad Max

.

P.S. Russian 7.62mm and higher easily penetrate walls and stuff. Nato stuff seems to lack in this department for the rifle rounds for some reason. Think it's because of less powder. Anyway an SVD or an AK-47 will penetrate a wall easily and kill someone on the other side.

We fire less powerfull rounds on purpose. KIAs you can ignore till after the battle while a injured solider requires help by one to two people to get away from the battlefield during the battle. Not too mention the pyshcological impact of a injured friendly in pain.

[Mad Max]

I'd rather kill them than risk them being ok and shoot back. 5.56 has this problem, when high on adrenaline it can take several rounds to even make someone realise they've been shot with it.

[uglygun]

Originally Posted by Mad Max

I've not looked at that video, and I don't particularly want to, but from what is described it sounds like they're using the explosive tipped rounds on them...

No, it isn't. Re-read the thread, it's a varmint shooting video and I provided the link to the producer of said varmint video with the actual footage stolen for use in the faked video.

There is one "explosive" round for the 50BMG and it's the MK211 "RAUFOSS" round, "RAUFOSS" is the Norwegian manufacturer of a variety of various types of ammo. The stuff is not that terribly impressive, the HE helps only marginally with the ability of the round to penetrate armor, it has a bonus effect against some equipment in that the HE causes secondary fragmentation within the target along with helping to spread the Incindary mix through out the target.

Primary ammo types is the M33 Ball(mild steel core), M2 AP round(hardned steel core), tracer, API-T, API, Incindary, MK211 multipurpose, SLAP, and SLAP-T.

There is no specific high explosive round, the 50BMG MK211 round has a small amount of an RDX like compound but it very small. There is also a small amount of MK211 out on the civilian market on the US, typically goes for 35-45 dollars per round. And it's performance is of minor advantage to that of the much more common AP types such as the M2 AP rounds I load for around 85-1.15 a round, API or APIT can be loaded for slightly less because the components are currently more common.


As for ability to punch through things, this is a complex issue that has a LOT to do with the medium or material. I can punch a hole through 1/4 inch, almost 3/8 inch, of mild steel plate with the 5.56x45mm while the 7.62x39mm can have a difficult time doing such. Why? It's the velocity, a 55grn 5.56x45mm at 3200+fps at the muzzle can manage to zap through things pretty easily out to 100 yards. Where the 7.62x39mm usually barely manages 2200fps with a 123grn projectile.

The 7.62Nato is a ballistically superior round to the typical 7.62x54R russian round. When making an AP round, faster is always better and it helps the steel core penetrators do their work.

Originally Posted by Omniassiah

We fire less powerfull rounds on purpose. KIAs you can ignore till after the battle while a injured solider requires help by one to two people to get away from the battlefield during the battle. Not too mention the pyshcological impact of a injured friendly in pain.

This is only partially true. The other benefits included being able to build a lighter rifle with lighter recoil properties and made use of lighter ammo.

Dump a handful of 5.56x45mm rounds into your hand as opposed to a handful of 7.62Nato. For the weight, you can carry almost 2 times as much 5.56x45mm ammo than that of the 7.62Nato. Compare the rifles, a Gov't. A2 has a much better handling characteristic than that of an M14, or even the bigger brother to the AR15/M16 which is the AR10 chambered in 7.62Nato.

[Mad Max]

Russian 5.45 x 39 is even smaller, lighter and also more powerful than 5.56 x 45 NATO. It travels faster too and has penetration chracteristics close to that of the 7.62 x 39. What's this about 7.62 x 39 not getting through a 1/4 inch of steel? You must be using crap quality rounds if that's from personal experience. Try using a Russian made AK-47 with Russian made ammunition.

Just because something goes faster doesn't mean it kills more effectively. A Russian 7.62 x 54 may travel slower than the NATO equivilent, but the sheer trauma caused to the body and the damage it does will do a far more efficient job of killing you.

I don't understand why you'd want to make a round that injures someone to be taken away, a lot of the time (with 5.56 for example) needing to fire about 5 rounds to even get to the "medevac" stage when you could kill them stone dead with one or two shots of a slower heavier bullet. You'd need less 7.62 x 39mm than 5.56 x 45mm to kill more people. 7.62 x 39 Soviet is well known for its impressive penetration. It can go clean through 3ft of reinforced concrete and still kill a man on the other side. Look at 'Nam, the VC and NVA and so on simply had to spray the tree's with their AK's and RPD's and so on and they'd inflict massive casualties on the US forces before the Americans even knew where they were. 5.56 on the other hand got lodged into even young small tree's and was useless in such an environment. Why do you think M60's were so popular? They could go through stuff!

P.S.

The Russians wouldn't use 7.62 as an armour peircing round anyway. They'd bring out a .50 or a 14.5mm to do that job. Who cares about Geneva when you've never bothered signing it?

[uglygun]

Originally Posted by Mad Max

Russian 5.45 x 39 is even smaller, lighter and also more powerful than 5.56 x 45 NATO. It travels faster too and has penetration chracteristics close to that of the 7.62 x 39.

No, it isn't. The 5.45x39mm and 7.62x39mm share a common relative in the Russian line of cartridges, the 220 Russian. There is very little if any space savings in terms of the 5.45x39mm, it is essentially a necked down 7.62x39mm cartridge holding a 22 caliber bullet. The "5.45" is only numerically smaller than that of the "5.56", actual bore diameters and bullet diameters vary by barely .002 of an inch. The 5.45x39mm is not smaller than a 5.56x45mm in terms of internal volume or external dimensions. Actually hold them in your hands and you'll see the 5.45x39mm as a "fat" little cartridge with a minor savings in length, where the 5.56x45mm has a thinner casing with slightly longer casing length.

The 5.56x45mm is not gonna be slower than the 5.45x39mm in any event unless you begin to handicap the 5.56x45mm by shooting it from shorter barreled carbines, but the M855 and M193 loads fired out of a 14.5inch M4 do compare in muzzle velocities to the 5.45x39mm velocities out of an AK74.

Where ever you got your information, it is incorrect. About the best you can see of a 5.45x39mm is around 2900fps, it loses hands down to the 62grn M855 load at 3150fps from a 20inch M16 or a 55grn M193 load at 3250-3300fps from a 20inch M16.

While the 5.45x39mm does strange things when it tumbles through flesh, it is not known to fragment like the M855 and M193 loadings when impacting at velocities above 2700fps(out of a 20inch barrel such behavior is good for around 150-200 yards).

And as I said, it depends on the medium. Both the US M16 rounds are known to fragment upon impact provided the impact velocity is above 2700fps, the wounds it creates can be a good bit more draumatic and damaging than that of a 7.62x39mm round which tends to not do any of that. True that the mass of the 7.62x39mm might help it penetrate better against things like trees, it's heavy construction and mass are a big culprit in that.

I've used 7.62x39mm surplus from Russia, Yugoslavia, and commercial ammo made here in the US. I stand by my comments that velocity counts more in penetrating steel. The results are well documented and it's the reason behind why the 50BMG SLAP round uses a lighter smaller diameter projectile moving at 4k fps muzzle velocity instead of the standard 700grn AP projectile at 2900fps.

[Mad Max]

In short... Russian ammo generally stays in one peice and causes MASSIVE trauma to the victim, and kills them. 5.56 used by US forces in particularly fragments on impact and has appauling poor killing power. It may cause more "damage" over a wider area in the body with the fragments, but one shot rarely kills unless it's somewhere vital like the head or the heart.

In short... Russian ammo is designed to KILL. American ammo is designed to injure and have them carted off by at least one other person. I'd rather them both be dead in fewer shots, and have a round I know will put the guy who most likely doesn't go by the doctorine of "injure them so they need to be taken from battle" and instead use the "kill the bugger" doctorine. Most forces the US and other professional armies face these days are using Russian weapons, or older weapons with larger calibre rounds that do massive ammounts of damage and ACTUALLY KILL.

Modern NATO assault rifles ammunition is seriously lacking, especially considering the threats we face these days. These guys dont care what they use, they're just trying to kill you, and if you're shot with an AK of any type chances are you won't get up after a burst, unlike 5.56 where it's commonly reported that people take upto a full magazine to drop (more common in things like the M4 with its low muzzle velocity due to the small barrel).

Also don't question my sources. My main source is a medic who's seen much action and know about various bullet balistics and their capabilities.

P.S.

Oh and I actually meant the 5.45mm projectile itself. The cartridge is rougly the same size which gives it much more room for extra powder compared to 5.56 cartridges.

EDIT:

Sorry for going off topic.