David Gray warns on torture music

[Wolfmaster]

Originally Posted by ArmedDrunk&Angry

Torture doesn't work.
Because the French failed at it in Algeria and Indochina ?
The witch trials don't count, as they were not building a base of data from which to fight a war.
If I torture you and you just make stuff up to get it to stop, won't I realize this when I compare your information to other sources ?

Most of what constitutes " torture " in Gitmo is about equal to what happens in fraternities all across the nation every year, not to mention basic training in the Army/ Marines.
We won't even get into how the elite units are treated during their training.

It is a far cry from the Iron Maiden, thumbscrews and the rack.

I'm sure there are people in Club Gitmo that don't belong there, and I'm also sure few if any of them have been "tortured".
Give the military some credit, if some guy says he is a sheepherder who lived near KSM and keeps saying that and all his details match that story, then he probably won't get tortured.
But even at that, mistakes will happen, there will be glory/promotion hungry officers who will cut corners, just like there are people who break the rules in any given profession.

True, people who cut corners in law enforcement and military operations can absolutely destroy Innocent lives and we should do everything possible to minimize those mistakes and punish those who knowingly cross the line.

But Iraq was invaded and Al Queda fought and mostly defeated there.
The attention shifts to Afghanistan now but without a belligerent nation in the region to give aid and comfort to the enemy.

If forcing someone to listen to loud music will bring the boys back home, then so be it.
I don't wish ill on the innocent from any land but at least I am honest enough to say that if some one has to die by mistake, I would rather it not be an American.

If enough information is available to confirm someone's story of innocence, that person wouldn't be in Guantanamo in the first place. Not for long anyway. It's the ones for who that information isn't available that get into trouble. The comparison to fraternities is only partly true. That's not half as tough, even though the techniques may be the same or similar. If you're put through that in a fraternity, you know it's finite and you just have to go through it once. Torture isn't just the techniques, it's also not knowing when it's going to end or feeling like you will never get out of there. The mental pressure is way higher.
As for the Army/Marine/elite units, those people choose to be put in that situation. They are prepared (or should be) for what they get. The fact that they can handle it doesn't mean it's acceptable to put innocent civilians through the same sort of stress.
And about that last part of your post... I can understand what you're saying, but personally I would rather have someone from my country die by mistake than have my country be responsible for the suffering of others.

[Defiyur]

Originally Posted by WNxKenwayy

Also please explain the dozens of missions currently taking place in the African continent, at great cost to the US and getting no benefit in return. Likewise explain the Eastern European missions.

Kosovo is extremely rich in natural resources. This is a FACT/FACTOR for those to consider as to what role if any this plays in NATO/UN/OUR involvement there. EDITED due to AD&A going off the chain again with his conclusions/assumptions.

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

Originally Posted by Defiyur

Kosovo is extremely rich in natural resources.

...and the US is making money from those how ?

The accusation is that we only went into Iraq for the money, so if we went into Kosovo in order to loot the country the way we are accused of doing in Iraq, can you show me any information that would support that ?

[Defiyur]

Originally Posted by ArmedDrunk&Angry

...and the US is making money from those how ?

The accusation is that we only went into Iraq for the money, so if we went into Kosovo in order to loot the country the way we are accused of doing in Iraq, can you show me any information that would support that ?

Kenwayy asked for an explanation of Eastern missions. I'm just trying to inject some possibilities and cast doubt that we participate in things just out of the goodness of our hearts. This is not an accusation merely laying another "factor" on the table for people to consider. I really have no way of knowing who's going to reap the profits off of all that but it's not Serbia anymore.

But what I find interesting is the ethnic Albanians are Muslims and to Serbs they are considered "terrorists" (either rightfully or wrongfully but that's what many Serbs consider them). So why have we taken the side of Muslims who one country deems "terrorists"? Seems pretty damn strange if you ask me. It implies massive hypocrisy. I'm not trying to paint the US = evil & everyone else = good I'm just trying to keep it real because I'm a realist and one of the worst things is for people to be deluded and only seek "convenient/pat on the back" truths. The world is an ugly selfish place more often than not, we shouldn't pretend it isn't.

[spacemanc]

Kosovo is a very complicated issue with a complicated history, but bottom line is ethnic albanians wanted kosovo as their homeland ( and formed militias/terror groups? to achieve it ). Maybe they should have looked on the map and noticed that next door there was aready a country called Albania and maybe that would have made a good homeland? To give the US credit, they did step in when atrocities were happening ( on both sides ) but to slowly make Kosovo a country, which no doubt in the future will "unify" with Albania, doesnt seem like the right thing to do in my book. Of course the arguement is that its population is almost 90% "ethnic albanians" ( they were born in Serbia, and drove out most of the "ethnic Serbians" )
What will happen when my home town in the UK becomes majority "ethnic pakistanis" which it very nearly is now - or how about "ethnic africans" in some areas of the US - will they get the same support for autonomy?

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

I'm just trying to inject some possibilities and cast doubt that we participate in things just out of the goodness of our hearts. This is not an accusation merely laying another "factor" on the table for people to consider

.

It is an accusation but one with no basis in fact so you play it off as a "factor".
Because America has to be the bad guy and if you can't find the proof, it just means they are hiding it too well ?

We intervened because of the genocidal behaviour of the Serbs.
It is a fine example of why waiting for the UN and European consensus is pointless and often painful.
Who was it again who let Milosovec slip through their fingers ?

[Defiyur]

Originally Posted by ArmedDrunk&Angry

.
America has to be the bad guy and if you can't find the proof, it just means they are hiding it too well ?

We intervened because of the genocidal behaviour of the Serbs.
It is a fine example of why waiting for the UN and European consensus is pointless and often painful.
Who was it again who let Milosovec slip through their fingers ?

#1 why do you think I like Bill Clinton? Talk all the trash you want about him. He's just another politician to me. I'm aware Clinton was pres during those years. There's no "gotcha" because there's nothing to get. I never proclaimed how much I love democrats/Bill Clinton. You seem to think I'm one of these polarized democrats equally as extreme and party clinging as some conservatives.. well I'm not. I'm not a "democrat" or "republican" I have no allegiance to either polarizing party or its views.

You say we went in because of Milosevic. Ok fair enough, that makes basic sense from a humanitarian perspective but why then don't we also go into Africa and every other country in a civil war with genocide going on? To not question is to remain ignorant and trusting and 2 qualities I don't possess are being uninquisitive and blind trust. This is not "America has to be the bad guy" it's "you shouldn't take at face value governments/politicians & their motives" IMO. I inquire about things pertaining to America since I live here. If I lived somewhere else I'd be inquiring about things pertaining to there but I don't so I wont.

PS check my previous post. I fixed it for you to clarify what I was getting at.

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

I think the fact that we still need to enforce a peace within the Balkans, not to mention the problems of nation-building in Iraq is why we don't invade every horrible little country out there.
Then we would be torturing people left and right, I mean aggressively interrogating them.

Certainly there are many countries that the average citizen would like some one to invade and get rid of the bloodthirsty monster that currently runs the place.
But the world doesn't have the stomach for that, much to hard to hold onto what you have now, never mind trying to administer 10-20 other countries.

The Europeans did that for a while and in the end it bit them in the ass, although most of them ducked out without any serious losses.

But no matter what happens in Iraq and Afghanistan, we will have the need to extract information from unwilling subjects in the foreseeable future and if playing some lame-ass weepy " rock " music is what it takes, then sign up David Gray and every other band like him.