David Gray warns on torture music

[georgehu2007]

it's not what song they use for torture that matters, but how loud and long it is played. if you were listening to extremely loud heavy metal for a long time, you would go nuts

[Hotrod525]

Originally Posted by spacemanc

Many of the people in gitmo are innocent though ( admittedly not all ) Many were captured because of bounties that the US offered for captured Taliban. Remember the Taliban are not terrorists - yes the gave sactuary to Al qaeda, yes they practice a particularly oppresive form of Islam, but it wasnt them who carried out the 9/11 attacks. They are seen by many Afghans ( not all ) as freedom fighters, who fought off the soviet invasion and who are now trying to fight off the allied invasion.
They basically ruled Afghanistan in 2001 - if you fight against a foreign force invading your country, does that make you a terrorist?
As for torture it is proven to be a very ineffective form of interrogation as well as being WRONG WRONG WRONG under ANY circumstances.

Taliban are terrorist. They have always been and always will be. a Terrorist by definiton is somone who use terror to acheive ( any thing ) political, military or even religion goals. Taliban where executing people whitout any good reason, they receive AlQueada like Allah himself.

Check you're book men, Taliban are realy not the nice people you think they are.

Try to interrogate a terrorist ( from any well trained group ) he will laugh at you. You need to give him a good reason to talk, thats sad, but thats how it is. They dont burn them to death or slice them in piece in Guantanamo. They only force them to talk.

In my opinion, Terrorist dont fight by the rules, so the rules dont apply to them. Thats it. Burn them whit Napalm or White Phosphore i dont care men. You think they care about us when they kill 2,800 peoples in less than 1 hour ? Violence dont solve probleme,especialy those like that, but is a part of the solution.

And if you think there innocent people in Guantanmo prison... just try to figure out how many innocent people got killed by terrorist.

[Blackie]

they gettin away with this in 2008 !m what you think gonna happen when they have ALL of this locked down, Biometrics eye scanners cctv blah blah blah shit is scary man people sleep walking right now


only reason USA out there is because of oil dont forget that its all about the $$$ before you go off on some moral high ground about your right they wrong shit....

you think that taliban would be blown themselves up if they had tanks planes bombs satellites ? HELL NO !!!

bit random but im not saying who is right or wrong im saying watch out !!! World is sleep walking into a nightmare and putting up with guantanamo is another piece in the puzzle


this could be your kids kids

[gclark03]

Many of us don't oppose torture by the United States government because it isn't 'what [terrorists] deserve', we oppose torture because it's a symbol of American hypocrisy. How can we invade and effectively destroy the nation of Iraq under the pretense of human rights violations when we commit such violations, albeit less severely, ourselves?

The only way we get away with it is by 'being the man', as was said earlier.

[SethLive!]

Originally Posted by Blackie

only reason USA out there is because of oil dont forget that its all about the $$$ before you go off on some moral high ground about your right they wrong shit....

if it was about oil, then why is only 5% of all us oil from iraq?

source

basically you're just listening to propaganda ("sleepwalking") and not checking your facts...

you think that taliban would be blown themselves up if they had tanks planes bombs satellites ? HELL NO !!!

so the solution is to give them tanks, bombs, planes, and satellites? lol!

[Hotrod525]

Originally Posted by Blackie

only reason USA out there is because of oil dont forget that its all about the $$$ before you go off on some moral high ground about your right they wrong shit....

United States dont need to invade Irak for oil. Canada got enought oil for long long time.
We are the second largest reserve in the world, and its realy more cheaper to buy it from us ( im canadian ) than spend 3 trillions in an useless war after all. Iraqi dont like to be free i suppose..

Oil reserves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Blackie

you think that taliban would be blown themselves up if they had tanks planes bombs satellites ? HELL NO !!!

War is not balanced, never was, never will be. Our soldiers will not Honing in the villages at night to rape the women, terrorizing peasants, hide bombs to kill civilians etc... So no they dont have equipement, but, is more the atitude than the equipment the problem.

Originally Posted by Blackie

this could be your kids kids

Thats exactly what they deserve for the reason above. And i hope my kids will never becames terrorists. If they do so, well, they will deserve to go at Guantamo like all those guy.

[PFunk]

Originally Posted by gclark03

Many of us don't oppose torture by the United States government because it isn't 'what [terrorists] deserve', we oppose torture because it's a symbol of American hypocrisy. How can we invade and effectively destroy the nation of Iraq under the pretense of human rights violations when we commit such violations, albeit less severely, ourselves?

The only way we get away with it is by 'being the man', as was said earlier.

I find it quite angering to hear so many people equate human rights to actions and behavior, as if its more a privilege to be alive and that when someone breaks our code we can just go nuts on them cause... well they did something wrong.

Its always hilarious and sad when you see the arrogant and stupid hypocrits that harp on about patriotic nonsense and freedom and all that jingoistic propaganda and they turn around and basically contradict it by encouraging a lesser evil to that which they're supposedly sickened by.

And not every detainee in Guantanamo is a terrorist, just the same way not every prison inmate in the US is a serial killer or rapist. Many people are sent there for one reason or another but not always the extreme one of plotting to blow up an airplane. But then thats the problem with this harsh and irrational "they deserve it" mentality. How do you decide someone deserves it? Whats the criteria? And really, is the military trustworthy? Theres a reason we have a justice system, its because we figured out that people given enough power abuse it and without the pressure from doing wrong will take it too far on the wrong people.

Guantanamo is a aberration of everything that America stands for.

[Begbie]

Originally Posted by [R-CON]ZZEZ

You know this from?where is the statistic that shows that its "many"??

Guantanamo Bay - Detainees
"On February 7, 2006, Mark Denbeaux, professor at Seton Hall University Law School and counsel to two Guantanamo detainees, and Joshua Denbeaux released a report on the Guantanamo detainees. This report used information contained in the Combatant Status Review Board Letters, released by the Department of Defense, to compile a profile on the detainees. It provides a more detailed picture of who the detainees are, how they ended up at Guantanamo, and what evidence there is to support their classification as enemy combatants. Some of the information contained in the report include the fact that only 8% of the detainees are classified as Al Qaeda fighters and only 5% were actually captured by US forces (most were arrested by Pakistan and the Northern Alliance and then turned over to the United States)."

http://law.shu.edu/news/guantanamo_r...al_2_08_06.pdf

Pervez musharraf writes in his book that pakistan handed over 369 prisoners to the United States, private individuals in Pakistan totalling millions of dollars of earned bounties. And prisoners handed over by "the northern alliance" which partly consists of people who conducted their campaing of rape and murder against the afghans in the aftermath of the soviet withdrawal. Not the first people who I would trust.

So to say that the detainees deserve all the torture they get is rather irrational.

Now there certainly are al-quaida fighters there and these "worst of the worst", nobody is denying that. There are also people who's only crime is bad luck. Also the cases of released men known to be innocent tells it own story.
But its premature to call a detainee innocent or guilty for that matter before they have seen a fair trial.

Guantanamo is just a small picture of it. The real black holes and torture chambers are in Eastern or should I say "new Europe", Middle East and yes quite possibly in Bosnia aswell.

[Wolfmaster]

Originally Posted by Hotrod525

Try to interrogate a terrorist ( from any well trained group ) he will laugh at you. You need to give him a good reason to talk, thats sad, but thats how it is. They dont burn them to death or slice them in piece in Guantanamo. They only force them to talk.

Well, there's one fundamental flaw with that reasoning. The right objective should not be to force them to talk, but to get them to tell the truth. Examples from as early as medieval times (witchhunts etc, but normal crimes as well) have shown that torture gets confessions all the time. But how reliable are they? How many people these days believe witchcraft is real and is responsible for all the world's disasters? Yet thousands of people each year confessed to witchcraft crimes under torture. Torture doesn't make people tell the truth, it makes them say what is needed to stop the torture. Now I know torture in medieval times was a lot worse than Guantanamo, but the principle still applies. Confessions made under torture are hopelessly unreliable.

Originally Posted by Hotrod525

In my opinion, Terrorist dont fight by the rules, so the rules dont apply to them. Thats it. Burn them whit Napalm or White Phosphore i dont care men. You think they care about us when they kill 2,800 peoples in less than 1 hour ? Violence dont solve probleme,especialy those like that, but is a part of the solution.

And if you think there innocent people in Guantanmo prison... just try to figure out how many innocent people got killed by terrorist.

This I have two problems with.
1. First of all... Violence certainly doesn't solve problems. In fact, it creates them. I happened to see the news today. They interviewed some radical muslims in the Palestinian territories. What they said was that the military intervention in the Middle East and treatment of Muslims by 'the West' is driving their membership numbers to record heights. I agree completely that terrorists are horrible persons, and I don't give a sh*t what happens to them. But the violent approach just isn't the smart approach. It may get you vengeance, but it also assures there will be a lot more to avenge in the future.

2. That last sentence... "And if you think... killed by terrorists." That makes no sense at all. If terrorists kill innocents in our countries, does that mean we can make their innocents suffer? Not terrorists, but innocent people who just happen to share an area of living with those terrorists. And there are sure to be a few of those in Guantanamo. (Mind you, that's no reason in itself to close Guantanamo. If it was, you'd have to shut down every prison or holding facility on the planet. Avoiding innocents being convicted is near impossible.)

[gclark03]

This is getting far off topic - the original subject is music in torture, not torture itself. (I'm sorry for contributing to it.)

I just don't want another good debate thread locked, that's all.

To contribute to the original subject, any unusually harsh means of extracting information from the captive is torture - this includes both loud music + restraints and waterboarding.