"French student found dead in New Cross was stabbed 196 times"

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

Unarmed citizens = easy prey

[[R-DEV]Masaq]

Citizens aremed with knives = stab each other.

The stabbings in London aren't because the happless public are wandering around without guns to look after themselves with, it's because there's an increasing knife culture for kids and young people in inner-city areas. It's being fueled by itself; the more kids carry knives, the more that others think they need to carry them to be safe.

There's a ton of evidence that shows quite clearly that you're much more likely to get stabbed if you're carrying a knife.

Put it this way: currently, if I get mugged one night, I'm handing over my wallet with about five quid in it and my mobile phone that's insured and backed up. Then I'm going to the police and giving a description, and calling my bank to stop my cards etc.

On the other hand, if I get mugged and I'm carrying a knife, the chances are that: I'll pull my blade out, my mugger already has his out, one of us will get stabbed and either I'm spending a night in cells (and then I'm prosecuted for carrying a blade if not assault with a deadly weapon, even though it was self defence - I still broke the law) or, I'm either injured badly or dead.

[Colt556]

Simple solution, carry guns. As the saying goes, never bring a knife to a gun fight.

[gclark03]

If guns were legal in New Cross, these students would simply have been shot if the motive was there to kill them.

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

No, if carry a concealed weapon were legal, they would prey on people who don't have those weapons, like French people, or any tourist really because they know the tourist won't have a weapon.
But if nobody has a weapon, then I can mug anyone with impunity.
These guys got more than mugged.

Stats showing carrying a knife makes you more likely to be stabbed probably represent more that people who get caught carrying knifes ( the base number of the stat ) are more likely to commit a crime than the average citizen anyway, so like drug stats that only come from ERs and Rehabs, they are suspect in their validity.

Doesn't matter, they are not going to allow people to carry weapons legally so it is simply a matter of avoiding the dangerous areas.
Of course if the dangerous areas keep spreading, despite the most cameras in the world, then you might have to wonder about the efficacy of the law enforcement methods in the region.

[spacemanc]

BBC NEWS | England | London | Second arrest over student deaths

Looks promising considering he handed himself in and is being treated for ( I suspect self-inflicted ) injuries.
The knife crime problem ( which is pretty rare , and as AD & D says, unless your dodgy already, youre extremely unlikely to be a victim ) is getting loads of press in the UK at the moment.
Politicians are talking about jailing people just for carrying a knife, which IMO should be happening already. The problem is that the jails are full, and 17 yo wannabe gangsta's are unlikely to be scared of a prison sentence.

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

That is why every prison sentence should also have a community service sentence attached.
It should start at 1000 hours and go up, steeply, based on your crime.
The guys who attack and rob some man in the street, like I saw in one video, filmed by the crime prevention cameras, should have to work for the state for the next 20 years AFTER the get out of jail.
See how much swagger and gangsta' tough guy you can be while pushing a broom.

[[R-DEV]Masaq]

Originally Posted by Colt556

Simple solution, carry guns. As the saying goes, never bring a knife to a gun fight.

Genius.

So, let's run my scenario again. The bad guy now has a gun instead of a knife, and I have a gun not a knife:

I'm walking down the street one night, and a guy pulls a gun on me and demands my wallet, mobile and mp3 player.

Do I:

1) Give him my wallet, call the cops and get a crime reference then call the bank and stop my cards, then call my insurance company etc.
2) Run away
3) Reach for my own weapon and shoot him and/or threaten him until he goes away.

Now, with guns option (2) is much harder. If I try to run and he's right in front of me, he should be able to drop me before I've even turned. Option (3) is also likely to see either me or him killed or wounded. Again, even if I shoot the guy in self defence I'm still going to be put in the cells for a while and quite possibly charged with an assault or worse. Worst case, I'm killed. Better case, I get injured - I'm still off work for ages etc.


I'm sorry, guns won't make me safer from street crime.

All that weapons do is increase the probability that someone will get more seriously hurt or killed.


Fists = the guy can swing at me, punch me a bit. He has to be close and he has to be able to stop me grabbing him and using the techniques we use at work to put 250lb men on their ass. Granted, at work we can only use them with several members of staff but with someone on the street I'm not too concerned if someone breaks a bone.

Knives = again, the attacker needs to be close. The chances are once the knife starts swinging, someone is going to get injured badly even if only the attacker is carrying one. If I'm carrying one, it's almost a certainty that one of us is going to get badly injured. It's very very easy to make a lethal wound in someone even if you stab areas like the leg or arm.

Guns = it's simplicity itself for someone to die, and all that me carrying a weapon does is ensure that someone will get seriously hurt.




Aboslutely, if someone was trying to kill me then I'd want a gun and I'd want training on how to use it properly and I'd want the biggest caliber I could control and use safely.

However, even with violent street crime most people aren't out to kill me. I might get injured by a bloke breaking into my house if I surprise him, but he won't be trying to kill me. Criminals are often very stupid but they're not so thick that don't know that a life sentence for killing someone in their own home is a damn sight worse than getting sent down for making off with a laptop and a DVD player. Ditto with muggings.

Just hand it over, report the theft and move on.

[[R-PUB]Viper5]

TBH, I'd rather be shot in the head than get stabbed 196 times...

Not that the above is relevant. Carry on now.

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.