Premature death and Religion

[Harrod200]

In the morality poll thread, Wolfe made a curious statement which got me thinking;

Originally Posted by Wolfe

I have not been granted superior judgment over another life, nor it is my right to take. I would leave the switch alone. If I could save their lives without sacrificing another, I would, but beyond that, destroying one life to save another is not in my authority, nor do I believe it should be in anyone else's.

Now, by that statement, it seems that Wolfe's belief that it is the 'plan' that the people aboard the train and station are destined to die there and then, and that by interfering he would be changing the 'plan'.

In most religions, the given deity is normally omnipotent, and has a set plan for every individual. This plan cannot be changed, and runs its course, regardless of mortal intervention. Therefore, we have no choice in the matter and by extension, no free will at all.

If we accept this as truth, does that not then mean that there is no such thing as murder, or suicide? If everyone has a set plan for their life which cannot be altered, that surely means their death was not premature and was in fact destined to be. That also means the murderer had no choice in the matter, and was following his/her own preset plan.

With no free will in the equation, how can society possibly condone punishing the murderer for an action over which s/he had no control? Of course, given the lack of free with the existence of destiny, it is really not society's choice to punish the person, as this was also pre-ordained.

So; are we merely players in a pre-written play, with no free will or are we free to do as we wish, including murder, with no pre-ordained path and destiny? Or do you have an alternate interpretation of destiny?

[georgehu2007]

I choose to invoke the noble silence. How can we possibly explain something beyond our comprehension? It is futile to discuss fate or the existence of God or anything that's beyond our comprehension

[[R-DEV]Masaq]

That's just it, it's not beyond our comprehension.

As for wolfe's comment, put it this way:

1) IF I state that there is a "plan" for everybody
2) If I then intervene and stop somebody dying by throwing a person out of the way of a car, etc
3) Then by doing that, am I not simply carrying out that person's "plan"?


Who's to state that someone should die at that moment? Sure, by not acting I might be making the "plan" complete... at the same time, the plan could be that I must intervene as the "right" time for them to die is in 35 years time... I can't know or tell what the "plan" is.

Therefore I must act as a moral individual and not place any onus on a supernatural plan or being beyond human comprehension and act in the way that causes least harm to the most.

[SuperTimo]

I choose to invoke the noble silence. How can we possibly explain something beyond our comprehension? It is futile to discuss fate or the existence of God or anything that's beyond our comprehension

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thats just a cop out phrase for people who can't get their head round it...

no offence


the right to end life? who says we have no right to end life? the law or some "god" i of course think taking life is wrong but there are times when it is justified. eg the morallity issues talked about.

Wouldnt it be more of a 'wrong' to do nothing and let all of the people die, rather than save the majority of them?

[georgehu2007]

i was talking about fate or divine plan. how can we know what our fate is or what God has planned for us?

[SuperTimo]

i dont beleive 'god' has planned anything for me because im an atheist.

there is no plan to life, what happens to us is controlled by our actions

[georgehu2007]

so you agree with my first statement: that it is futile to discuss fate or the existence of God?

[SuperTimo]

no because i beleve that scietificlly it is not possible for there to be a 'force' which creates planets and watches everyone and all the jazz.

also big bang etc seem much more logical than "god made the earth in 7days"
theroy of evoloution > creation story etc.

Is it just a coincidence that the church is one of the richest organisations in the world?

religon is a scam to make money from peoples spiritual side.

[DOAW]

Free will. People always have the capacity to make make their own choices. Even if bound and gagged with a gun held to your head, you still have the ability to choose your own attitude at that time.

That being said, I think people operate on auto-pilot most of the time, without making any truly significant free-will (or moral, if you will) choices.

[[R-CON]Wolfe]

Free will and fate are identical.

We perceive them differently through our perspective of time. For if it's possible to be in all places at once, then you are in all times at once, and therefore all of creation is being played out in a single instant. If you hold a reel-to-reel movie in your hand, each character in that film is making free-will decisions, yet from your perspective you can see their free will and resulting consequences simultaneously, the beginning and end simultaneously, which we perceive as fate.

Regardless, in my statement you quoted, I was making no assumptions on their fate because it makes no difference whether they lived or died. Even if we knew the outcome, and even though we may have the power, it is not in our authority to judge one life's value over another.

Most people choose to sacrifice one life for another because they assume that death and pain are bad, but death and pain are simply necessary tools in the learning process of morality. We learn the most lessons through pain which helps us to maintain the path of happiness, and not just for ourselves, but for every life we touch. This may indeed be the meaning of life: to experience or re-experience this existence, judging ourselves between lives, and returning until we get it right by treating ourselves and each other righteously despite the corruptible temptation of absolute power.

If true, that could mean that all concisenesses are gods in training, not being granted the power until proving our worth. Until then, we squabble, steal, lie, and kill in this virtual reality called the universe, away from the place from which we came that our soul calls home.