My 0.7 Feedback - Lengthy Read

[DeePsix]

My Project Reality 0.7 Feedback

Howdy Everyone,

Before I begin let my first say what an amazing mod this is. I came on late in 0.4 and have been here since. You guys have done amazing things with this game, not only making it more real, but adding stuff that should have been in the original BF2 – like Rally points and Commander built assets. You’ve come a real long way and strived for a realistic experience. Thanks for such a great game and all your time.

Below I’m going to run down what I think is great about this new version, what isn’t so good, and what you should consider changing in 0.8. Understand that I mean my bad points not as a slam against you but as constructive criticism that you can do whatever you want with.

First the good:

What’s Good about changes in Project Reality 0.7

Spawning System- I figured I’d start with the big one on everyone’s mind. Overall these changes are for the better. Sure it makes it more complicated and increases travel time but the Squad Leader now has an active role for getting the squad to set up Rally Points before fighting and will actually engage the enemy rather than move up halfway and hide in a house and act as a spawn point. The direction you have taken may be accepted with a sour welcome by some of the community, but they will adapt to the changes and the game will continue. Squads now act as one and work together WITH the squad leader and create a great game! So many good teamwork moments have already come out of this recent version!

HUD- Probably one of the biggest changes for me is the now missing Mini-Map. I didn’t realize how much I subconsciously relied on it until this new version. I’ve never really been able to determine very well Friend from Foe at long range especially with the BF2 engine that makes skins all appear the same at range, which I guess is actually a good thing. Should I be 400meters away, I should have to take a knee and look to see who it is. Without the mini-map I find myself now laying down and checking my map to determine if it is a friend or foe. This does make players more cautious and more communicative about contacts which I like. The new compass is the BOMB! Now I can effective call out to my squad leader, “Contact Zero-Two-Zero, Unknown Infantry” and watch my squad hit the dirt and face slightly North East to face the threat. In reality I wouldn’t have a compass in my hand and call out a degree off of a contact, but it simulates being physically there and being in a 3D environment where I could gesture or simply be aware more than I can be off of a 3D rendered world. The delay in score recording is also great! I know tons of players were just hitting tab after shooting to see if they killed someone. This really prevents that. All of these improvements are probably the biggest cosmetically to the game HUD wise and really take the game in a good direction! Also good thinking on keeping the mini-map in place for vehicles!

Sound Effects- Simply stunning! Your goal of making a constant live ambient track works great! The distance noises fade perfectly from close range to long. There have been times when we would be moving as a squad across the map and machine gun fire or explosions would be heard not far off. Combined with the lack of a mini-map, this really works! My squad will stop and take a knee and determine the situation. The new rifle sound effects are fantastic, especially the sharp and crisp British Weapons. Combined with an X-Fi card, the suppressing fire we can lay really rattles my ears! Someone needs to invent an “X-smell” card so I can actually smell the gunpowder and complete the experience. Again, fantastic improvements in the Sound areas of PR.

Flight Controls- I only have limited cockpit experience in PR, most of my other clan mates do the flying, so most what I say here comes from them. The controls are now tweaked and probably throwing off my clan’s flying mojo. Planes handle very differently now, which everyone likes. We prefer it when planes/helos etc are difficult to fly that way everyone is diving for the aircraft. I like it when committed experts are on CAP, the ones that will come in for close air support when my squad leader calls for it. The taxi engines are helpful as now we don’t have to worry about hurtling in reverse through the hanger like Austin Powers or something.

Weapon Skins- Fantastic! The new M16 with an ACOG looks great! I mean, GREAT! The new ACOG scope is wonderful, no more mega iron sites! All the skins look super realistic and are accurate to real life. The new RPGs and other skins like IEDs are also well done and deserve acclaim.

Weapon Accuracy- The new deviation system makes for great fire fights! It’s good to see people actually engage in fighting rather than a rail gun contest. No more Sprint to Prone engagements that only last a few shots. Now with deviation people will actually pop in and out of cover and shoot. Bullets will zip and crack overhead, clang against my cover and really make for a good time! Finally, it’s like shooting in reality. I don’t expect myself to be shooting perfectly in a combat zone.

Commander/SL Building Assets- Another welcome improvement! The commander is no longer the construction foreman that he was before! We’ve played several times where we ride forward in a Supply truck capture an enemy area with another squad, and then set up defenses. It’s great! The commander doesn’t need to zip out there to do it all! The supply boxes from trucks and helicopters are very useful and a cool thing to have in the game. After several solid firefights, re-supply is very welcome.

New Vehicles- The new vehicles are superbly done. Each of them looks so real and really makes an impression when a tank column rolls by on the field. I especially love the Challenger. You really don’t see that tank in many games, and is a welcome edition. Too bad most of my experiences with it have been on receiving end of that rifled main gun. Again, all new vehicles from the Scimitar to the BRDM2 look fantastic!

New Maps- All of them are well thought out, designed, and a joy to play. To me, the greatest edition is The Battle for Qinling. Rolling hills, scattered trees, and a big map really make for not only great vehicle (air and ground) combat but squads now can engage in great firefights using terrain to flank or pin. Qinling is a great map that I look forward to playing again and again and again! The return of the night version of Bi Ming is also welcome! Slapping on my NVGs makes for a great change of pace!

Classes- Smart moves on the classes! Being a able to spawn as an officer right from the menu is great! I remember when you had to wait to request another officer’s kit after dying. I’m glad to see the frustration removed another step further! Also very welcome are the two types of riflemen! It adds flexibility which is great for the game. I also like how Rifleman AT kits now get ACOGs. I’ve noticed in game that Rifleman AT kits are being used much more than before. It is also nice to see the “1337 Spec Ops” get moved to limited kits.

What’s Bad about changes in Project Reality 0.7

Weapon Accuracy- I understand what you were doing. I don’t expect to be an amazing shot especially after sprinting and sliding behind cover. The M16 acts fine now, but the G3 variants have a problem with hitting anything. I understand that 7.62 will drop over distances more so than a 5.56, but I’ve engaged several times at less than 25meters and I still can’t hit him. I actually found myself more accurate without sighting in – which is mostly a No-No in PR. Don’t get me wrong, the deviation is great and all the problems you have had with it have already been brought up and you guys are already in the process of fixing it.

Map Lag- I know your already aware of this but I feel its worth emphasizing. New maps like fools road are nigh impossible to play with the lag. The map is considerably large and kills the game play with the lag issues. Some people have similar issues on Qinling but the lag subsides after a few minutes.

Spawn System- While the new spawn system is great; there are a few problems. The new spawn system encourages people to set a rally and work together but you’ll find that 25% of the time that once players die and respawn on the rally would rather sprint their way forward to the front. If the engagement is particularly thick, then most of the squad will sprint their way one at a time. Most of the time this doesn’t happen but most new players or players without mics will tend to “rambo” and run off.

Anti-Tank- Again, the changes to the H-AT do a great job of preventing “H-AT sniping” but there are a few issues I have with it. When I spot an enemy tank and setup for the shot, I have to wait for such a long time before my sights zero and I’m clear to fire. In the mean time, the tank’s buzzers are going nuts and he is fleeing OR uses his ungodly optics to use his turret machine gun to snipe me 400 meters away as I set up. I think the best way to solve this would be to make the H-AT and even L-AT more deadly. I get setup on a hill and go through all that to fire and not kill my target which in reality would explode in a thousand little pieces. Consider keeping the system the way it is, just increase damages.

Ammo- Most of the ammo distribution choices I do like, but there are a few places where I think I should be able to get ammo from that I couldn’t otherwise. I agree with the removal of kit requesting from the ear of APCs, but I still think they should distribute ammo. I’ve noticed on the new maps that resupply/repair Humvees are either non existent or rare.

Spotting- The removal of the mini-map AND player spotting has really made VoIP a MUST. I like it for the most part, but I think that Squad Leaders should be able to spot things for the map and Squad Members should be able to spot “?” marks only.




I know I only covered a few topics, and there are so many things to compliment you on, such as the new laser targeting system and JDAMs. I hope my points provided useful feedback for the developers. I enjoying playing this mod and I hope that my feedback assists you in some way.

Below I have quickly summarized what I think should be changed for the next patch/release.

Changes To Consider:

Weapon Accuracy- Lessen the extent of deviation but keep it in the game. Tweak it for marksmen kits and snipers. I understand that you are already working on this. As of right now, most combat beyond 200 meters is nigh impossible to hit even when prone with scoped weapon. I’m sure you guys will tweak this just right and things will be back to normal soon

Spotting- Allow Squad Leaders to spot targets and Squad Members to spot “?” marks and consider either returning the mini-map in full zoom mode and show only squad members or place icons over squad members heads for situational awareness (See my post below Willgar's)

Ammo- Allow resupply from APCs and add in repair/recovery/resupply vehicles to assist armor.

Anti-Tank- Increase damages for the H-AT since it should realistically destroy most enemy vehicles. This would make Heavy AT more usefully rather than just acting as a loud alarm for the tank driver. Another Option to consider instead would be remove the missile lock warning from the tank drivers. Either of these changes would be great for game play.

Spawning- Give it time, the community will adjust to it. Consider making more spawnable areas at bases

Map Tweaks- some maps like Fools Road are nigh impossible to play with lag. Tweak the larger maps so as to make them more playable. Make more maps like Qinling!

Tank Machine Guns- Make that coaxial MG inaccurate! Too many times are people sniped by tanks at super long range due to the optics and the way the BF2 engines draws cover.

Fast Roping- Just kidding.

Again, I hope this is helpful. If anyone has any comments, please feel free to ask me! I'd be more than happy to discuss any of my points, good or bad. Thanks for the great release and I look forward to playing with all of you!

~Matt
"501st|DeePsix"
1st BN, 501st Infantry

[willgar]

Originally Posted by DeePsix

My Project Reality 0.7 Feedback

HUD- Probably one of the biggest changes for me is the now missing Mini-Map. I didn’t realize how much I subconsciously relied on it until this new version. I’ve never really been able to determine very well Friend from Foe at long range especially with the BF2 engine that makes skins all appear the same at range, which I guess is actually a good thing. Should I be 400meters away, I should have to take a knee and look to see who it is. Without the mini-map I find myself now laying down and checking my map to determine if it is a friend or foe. This does make players more cautious and more communicative about contacts which I like. The new compass is the BOMB! Now I can effective call out to my squad leader, “Contact Zero-Two-Zero, Unknown Infantry” and watch my squad hit the dirt and face slightly North East to face the threat. In reality I wouldn’t have a compass in my hand and call out a degree off of a contact, but it simulates being physically there and being in a 3D environment where I could gesture or simply be aware more than I can be off of a 3D rendered world. The delay in score recording is also great! I know tons of players were just hitting tab after shooting to see if they killed someone. This really prevents that. All of these improvements are probably the biggest cosmetically to the game HUD wise and really take the game in a good direction!

[~Matt
"501st|DeePsix"
1st BN, 501st Infantry

Good constructive post. The section above is a issues that really grates at me (as i dont have an uber graphic card) and at range trying to id friend and foe is hard. Pulling out a pocket map to check my targets just seems - well - unrealistic. Calling targets by direction only works if the whole squad is tightly grouped but if your advancing in a line, staggered or attacking a point from multiple directions - it simply does not work.

Calling targets is even more confusing if you dont know where all your squad are....
In "reality" i can walk/run in one direction and turn my head to look in another to give a wider field of vison than my 1024 x 768 monitor. Im reality, this is instinctive and gives me a situational awareness that i dont have in this game. PC game designers have yet to implement a good head move/directional movement system (Shuder- operation flashpoint - shudder)

Since the loss of the mini map, even trying to keep up with your own sqaud is much harder. Not saying it less fun - just much more challanging game experiance.

[[R-DEV]Jaymz]

Delayed making more coffee to read your entire post. Players such as yourself really are the ones whom gain the full PR experience. After all, you're the exact audience we're tending to. And I don't say that because of all the praise, nonono. It's because of the little examples you gave like the compass usage (I relate to that perfectly)


Now that said,

All you twats starting said threads "WTFBBQSAUCE 0.7 BLOWS"

Watch and learn how it's done and put down the doobage before emmbarassing yourselves with recockulous opening posts. This man has plenty of 0.7 critisism but approaches it in the perfect manner that actually grabbed my attention and, in most cases, my complete agreement (and I'm possitive I'm not the only member of the development team that believes that).


So, Deepsix. You thanked us for all our work. I'd like to thank you for setting the model code on how to review and critique a release.

[DeePsix]

I completely understand what you were saying. Some of my squad members and I were talking about it only yesterday. In reality I would be able to move my head around, make hand signals, gestures, point, etc. Translating reality into game creates some issues. I can't point or swivel my head to see what my members are doing as I walk. While the mini-map did help members keep a nice wedge formation or a tactical column while moving and represented the knowledge I would have by swiveling my head to see what other squad members are doing, it was often used to determine if the enemy was friend or foe just by analyzing it for blue triangles.

I think there would be two ways to get around this:

1) Return the mini-map fully zoomed, but remove all other symbols on it except for members in your squad. I'm not sure of the hard-coding limitations to this, but if you have a map in the corner with JUST your squad and the terrain it would represent my "situational awareness"

2) Put icons over members heads. The game already puts arrows on screen to help you know where squad members are in relation to you. Take it one step further and put a little green diamond on the squad leader with a distance meter and little green squares above squad members heads when their in visual range. This would help simulate situational awareness of the squad and also center the squad around the squad leader as he would have only marker with a distance ticker above his head.

Thanks for brining that up willgar, it was a point I forgot to mention in my OP.

~DeePsix

[DeePsix]

Sorry to double post, Jaymz posted as I was typing my previous one.

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Jaymz

So, Deepsix. You thanked us for all our work. I'd like to thank you for setting the model code on how to review and critique a release.

Thanks for the kind words Jaymz! I'm glad to be contributing in any way shape or form.

I forgot to warn members of the necessity of caffeinated beverages before reading my post. And I also forgot to ask to put in fast roping in 0.8 like the 10,000 suggestions to come.

~DeePsix

PS- Did you do the loading music for Qinling? I thought it was a very good song for a loading screen with the right amount of tension and build. Perfect for Project reality.

[[R-DEV]fuzzhead]

yea thanks deepsix great post, sums a few things up prety good and i agree with most of your recommended changes.

[M.J.Patterson]

WOW!

Best read of 0.7 feedback! This one gets my gold star.



I was reading the what's bad part and was nodding my head the whole time. And writing notes to myself.

As you said, keep playing and try to figure out what works best. I think a lot of people are using 0.6 strategies in 0.7 which will not work and is guaranteed to backfire. The players who are using teamwork are having a blast though.. sounds like you are at least!

[DeePsix]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]M.J.Patterson

WOW!

Best read of 0.7 feedback! This one gets my gold star.



I was reading the what's bad part and was nodding my head the whole time. And writing notes to myself.

As you said, keep playing and try to figure out what works best. I think a lot of people are using 0.6 strategies in 0.7 which will not work and is guaranteed to backfire. The players who are using teamwork are having a blast though.. sounds like you are at least!

A Gold Star!

Mom will be so proud when I get to hang it on the fridge!

You are right though. I am having a great time playing using teamwork. You guys on the development end can only make 50% of the game. The other 50% comes from members who are willing to work together. Members who are willing to do the dirty work like assemble base defenses, defend the government compound on Qwai River, or wait at rally points for the squad to assemble. From what I can read from most of the feedback, is complaints really about how people play with them. Everyone is upset that "teamwork" is gone when in reality, just the squads have changed. Some of the changes may make the game more "elitist" or more for the people who like total realism, but that's the point!

I look forward to joining squads who enjoy doing the dirty work.

[[R-DEV]Dunehunter]

Suggestion to the icons: I could seriously understand icons for your squad members at short ranges. Also, probably hardcoded, but if spotting put an icon on something for the rest of your squad to see, instead of something popping up on the minimap for everyone, that would be cool.

The AT thing: there is no one forcing you to keep it on the tank all the time aim a bit over him, then bring it down when it's ready, or just fire a bit over him, then guide it in.

[Ablack77]

+10 deepsix
That was the best post I've read on these forums
(incl. all of mine combined)
I don't need to write up a feedback post because you just said everything I would want to.