Changes to Basrah [Gameplay]

[thedoombringer0]

Originally Posted by maverick551

Its realistic isn't it? Have you ever heard of insurgents actually attempting to repair a bridge in battle? If the insurgents want to use their bomb cars so badly, then defend the bridges, its that simple.

then the brits should have to defend too but wait they dont have to because they have two indestructable crossings on opposite ends of the map.

The fording point in the east beside the duel carriage way bridge and the indestructable bridge at the west village.

this problem could also be solved by putting more bomb cars in the actual city.

And yes insugents would repair bridges or at least those working for them.
Irl would the military destroy trans routes for locals i doubt it. maybe put a checkpoint on the route but not destroy it.

[Celestial1]

Originally Posted by thedoombringer0

Celestial 1 The warrior is an IFV

Granted, but in PR it acts more like an APC than an IFV, as the scimitar seems to fill that roll, while the warrior can carry more than 2 people.

Originally Posted by thedoombringer0

Most of the problems you describe come from lack of teamwork and communication not as a result of the map and the way it works.

The merlin is effective if communication and teamwork are used.

Finaly my idea of vcp is to stop people sitting in main but that could also be solved with co assets but commanding on basrah can be annoying and often people dont even bother.

I almost always play insurgent on Al Basrah. It gets annoying when we have 3 caches out in the open, but because the British team focusing on one cache, it's almost useless to have the 3rd cache, as you're lucky if they attack any other one. 2 caches would make the least difference, and the British could still attack the other cache. It's not like I said that my personal preference should be the one put into the game. That's just what I personally think would make Basrah very intense. I can see things against it working, too.

The Merlin is used effectively sometimes; but with the general flight pattern of Merlin pilots, they seem to enjoy flying just outside the city while insurgents just keep an ear out for where the buzzin' holds still. While the Merlin can be used in good ways sometimes, it causes way too many people to run straight to the big green doors, instead of grabbing hold of a vehicle and working their way to a cache. You can like it being there all you want, but the only things interesting I've seen done with the Merlin is flying into RPGs.

Commanding on Basrah doesn't work, because all the British team is out to do is to go after the closest cache. And get in the Merlin, instead of trying to build a rally, or build a bunker, or a firebase, nothing.

Originally Posted by thedoombringer0

The cache system is fine yes most of the team usualy swarms one cache but irl real operations arent taken one at a time its usualy lots of raids all at the same time and thats what it encourages.

Encourages? No. 2 Caches might encourage that. 3 makes the British team poop themselves because they can't choose one. What are you going to miss if you only have 2 caches on the map? I have never seen a British team divide to attack all three caches. Never. Not a damn one single British soldier breaking off from the 2 caches that the British MIGHT attack, who could be lost and not know how he's supposed to get back to his team, with no intent of even looking for the cache.

It doesn't happen that often. Not to mention that all the caches are either in West Village, the Slums, or the outskirts of the city. If you get lucky, there's one in facility. The action you get in West Village almost never sees the same intensity of a fight in the city.

Originally Posted by thedoombringer0

And well it is pretty easy not to kill a civie if in doubt fire a few shots near him if he stands there in line of fire its a civie trying to make you shoot him.

Now THAT is really realistic, isn't it? Civis standing like they have nothing to live for. You simplify things way too much. Say I have what looks to be a civi (about 200 meters out, holding binocs) and he's laying on one of the 45 degree angle solar panels on a rooftop. What am I gonna do, blast a heat round in him? I don't want my coaxil going over his head and having him just stand up to spot me. So I wait, and observe him. He eventually moves around the rooftop, crawling, and then promptly stands up.

He has an RPG in his hands. And my vehicle is either destroyed or very close to it, even though I lay a few coaxil bullets into him. This happened yesterday. See in reality, I would be able to see he has an RPG with him. It would likely be in his hands or on his back. But you can't see that in BF2. Nope, not at all. So, while I'm trying not to rack up a civi kill, insurgents and RPG kits can stand around with binocs or a grenade, and I'll try not to shoot them because I can't tell.

I'm not saying change the civi so he's bright white and you can see him anywhere. I'm saying do something as minor as changing the angle of the stripes on his shirt so that after you observe him for a moment, you can tell whether or not he's a civi.

[Tirak]

Originally Posted by Celestial1

Granted, but in PR it acts more like an APC than an IFV, as the scimitar seems to fill that roll, while the warrior can carry more than 2 people.

The Scimitar is an armored recon vehicle, the Warrior is an infantry fighting vehicle, what that means is they carry troops into battle and support those troops.

I almost always play insurgent on Al Basrah. It gets annoying when we have 3 caches out in the open, but because the British team focusing on one cache, it's almost useless to have the 3rd cache, as you're lucky if they attack any other one. 2 caches would make the least difference, and the British could still attack the other cache. It's not like I said that my personal preference should be the one put into the game. That's just what I personally think would make Basrah very intense. I can see things against it working, too.

Any good Basrah Commander will put preassure on one or two caches and when he's sure the insurgents have committed themselves, he'll rush a squad around the flank and hit one of the more isolated ones, if that squad takes too long, he'll shift the attack or pull them back and wait for another opening, it's good tactical sense. Just because you're running into idiot commanders and british soldiers doesn't mean you need to put blinders on them.

The Merlin is used effectively sometimes; but with the general flight pattern of Merlin pilots, they seem to enjoy flying just outside the city while insurgents just keep an ear out for where the buzzin' holds still. While the Merlin can be used in good ways sometimes, it causes way too many people to run straight to the big green doors, instead of grabbing hold of a vehicle and working their way to a cache. You can like it being there all you want, but the only things interesting I've seen done with the Merlin is flying into RPGs.

If all you see is Merlin's being shot down, then they're in the hands of poor pilots. Good pilots are indeed hard to find, but they turn the Merlin into an invaluable asset for any commander. Merlins can get Demo squads to palace and take out the bridges to cut off the Insurgent supply of armed vehicles and bomb cars, Merlins can rush squads to other caches while the insurgents are distracted and Merlins can drop supply crates to aid in building far flung firebases, such as behind the city.

Commanding on Basrah doesn't work, because all the British team is out to do is to go after the closest cache. And get in the Merlin, instead of trying to build a rally, or build a bunker, or a firebase, nothing.

Again, you've never run into a good commander then. Good commanders can mean the difference between victory and defeat, just like on every other map, a good battle plan can give one squad enough time to sneak in and take out a lightly defended cache, a good commander organizes transport assets and stratigicly places build orders to support his squads, and your commander is the only one who, unless the team is using teamspeak, can integrate armored support to the level it needs to be at.

Encourages? No. 2 Caches might encourage that. 3 makes the British team poop themselves because they can't choose one. What are you going to miss if you only have 2 caches on the map? I have never seen a British team divide to attack all three caches. Never. Not a damn one single British soldier breaking off from the 2 caches that the British MIGHT attack, who could be lost and not know how he's supposed to get back to his team, with no intent of even looking for the cache.

Again, don't punish those of us who play the game well because some noobs can't focus, all this does is make it easier for the insurgents to defend when in reality, they'd have to split their forces and expose some of their vitals.

It doesn't happen that often. Not to mention that all the caches are either in West Village, the Slums, or the outskirts of the city. If you get lucky, there's one in facility. The action you get in West Village almost never sees the same intensity of a fight in the city.

I agree, the cache spawn system needs work.

Now THAT is really realistic, isn't it? Civis standing like they have nothing to live for. You simplify things way too much. Say I have what looks to be a civi (about 200 meters out, holding binocs) and he's laying on one of the 45 degree angle solar panels on a rooftop. What am I gonna do, blast a heat round in him? I don't want my coaxil going over his head and having him just stand up to spot me. So I wait, and observe him. He eventually moves around the rooftop, crawling, and then promptly stands up.

He has an RPG in his hands. And my vehicle is either destroyed or very close to it, even though I lay a few coaxil bullets into him. This happened yesterday. See in reality, I would be able to see he has an RPG with him. It would likely be in his hands or on his back. But you can't see that in BF2. Nope, not at all. So, while I'm trying not to rack up a civi kill, insurgents and RPG kits can stand around with binocs or a grenade, and I'll try not to shoot them because I can't tell.

I'm not saying change the civi so he's bright white and you can see him anywhere. I'm saying do something as minor as changing the angle of the stripes on his shirt so that after you observe him for a moment, you can tell whether or not he's a civi.

No, the civi should not change, if you're running into this problem, then you need to start bringing along an infantry screen. Armor is not meant to go it alone, and Insurgents can easily dispatch with an armored unit that chooses to do so. This situation is easily solved with coordination with your commander and another squad.

[Celestial1]

Originally Posted by Tirak

No, the civi should not change, if you're running into this problem, then you need to start bringing along an infantry screen. Armor is not meant to go it alone, and Insurgents can easily dispatch with an armored unit that chooses to do so. This situation is easily solved with coordination with your commander and another squad.

You seem to be missing the point of my complaint.

It doesn't matter what you're driving, or what you're not driving. The insurgent headgarbs do NOT render after a short distance. They don't. The weapons they carry do, but not the headgarb. And the weapons are not shown on their backs, so it is impossible to distinguish between an Insurgent, RPG kit, or civilian at about 200m plus, if they are not weilding an RPG or an AK-47.

Let me guess, next comment will be "watch what they are doing then", and my response is this: Sometimes, the RPG kit will use his binocs for quite some time, thinking that the armor he is tracking doesn't see him from his rooftop. He may not move, he may not switch weapons. He will often stand there and just use the binocs until he is ready to take the shot. Or an insurgent will be on a rooftop holding an ammo bag. Or a molotov. Depending on what you can see of them, you may not be able to tell the difference at all. But the War Veterans with their blue-green-brownish garments still render somewhat the same. You can tell they aren't civis, because they have different clothing. Does that mean to keep up the chirade that civis look just the same as everyone else that we should make the War Veteran wear the white clothing too?

When an Insurgent/RPG is over 200m and not weilding an AK47 or an RPG, there is NO visual difference between them and a civi. Not a single one.

[Tirak]

Originally Posted by Celestial1

You seem to be missing the point of my complaint.

It doesn't matter what you're driving, or what you're not driving. The insurgent headgarbs do NOT render after a short distance. They don't. The weapons they carry do, but not the headgarb. And the weapons are not shown on their backs, so it is impossible to distinguish between an Insurgent, RPG kit, or civilian at about 200m plus, if they are not weilding an RPG or an AK-47.

Let me guess, next comment will be "watch what they are doing then", and my response is this: Sometimes, the RPG kit will use his binocs for quite some time, thinking that the armor he is tracking doesn't see him from his rooftop. He may not move, he may not switch weapons. He will often stand there and just use the binocs until he is ready to take the shot. Or an insurgent will be on a rooftop holding an ammo bag. Or a molotov. Depending on what you can see of them, you may not be able to tell the difference at all. But the War Veterans with their blue-green-brownish garments still render somewhat the same. You can tell they aren't civis, because they have different clothing. Does that mean to keep up the chirade that civis look just the same as everyone else that we should make the War Veteran wear the white clothing too?

When an Insurgent/RPG is over 200m and not weilding an AK47 or an RPG, there is NO visual difference between them and a civi. Not a single one.

No, my next comment is, Use and infantry screen, they should form an arc in front of your tank a good fifty to one hundred meters ahead, well within range of your gun, and far enough forward to both direct your fire and eliminate threats before they get too close.

I fully support civies being compleatly indistinguishable from insurgents at range, I feel it better reflects the insurgency aspect of being unable to tell who is friend and who is foe until either careful examination, or shots are fired.

[Celestial1]

Originally Posted by Tirak

No, my next comment is, Use and infantry screen, they should form an arc in front of your tank a good fifty to one hundred meters ahead, well within range of your gun, and far enough forward to both direct your fire and eliminate threats before they get too close.

I fully support civies being compleatly indistinguishable from insurgents at range, I feel it better reflects the insurgency aspect of being unable to tell who is friend and who is foe until either careful examination, or shots are fired.

Right. And the infantry ahead of me will surely be able to render the insurgents on rooftops without headgarbs as not civis.

You would see an RPG on a persons back. You could see an AK-47 if they were carrying one. The game's engine makes it IMPOSSIBLE to distinguish between an RPG/Insurgent and a civi at that distance, infantry or vehicle. In real life, I'm pretty sure something as bulky as an RPG would be relatively easy to spot, especially if you had binoculars, but BF2 doesn't work that way.

I end up trying not to rack up any civi kills while I end up being killed by the 'civi' I've been watching for the past minute who magically procured an RPG.

[Tirak]

Originally Posted by Celestial1

Right. And the infantry ahead of me will surely be able to render the insurgents on rooftops without headgarbs as not civis.

You would see an RPG on a persons back. You could see an AK-47 if they were carrying one. The game's engine makes it IMPOSSIBLE to distinguish between an RPG/Insurgent and a civi at that distance, infantry or vehicle. In real life, I'm pretty sure something as bulky as an RPG would be relatively easy to spot, especially if you had binoculars, but BF2 doesn't work that way.

I end up trying not to rack up any civi kills while I end up being killed by the 'civi' I've been watching for the past minute who magically procured an RPG.

Perhaps not the render, but you should not be so close as to offer an easy shot from someone in the city. The rule of armor on Basrah is to never enter the city, too many lines of fire for an armored unit to defend against. An infantry screen will get you through the outskirts and even the villiage as the infantry screen will have found enemies hiding before they can get their shot off accurately, but if you enter the city, there is no tactic to combat that kind of stupidity. And while you may see a rifle or an RPG, if an insurgent was preparing to ambush you and knew he was being observed, he would not have such a weapon in sight, it would be hidden, either buried slightly in the sand or behind some kind of obstruction.

[Bringerof_D]

VCP should be capturable again, that actually gave the brits a chance at taking the caches, because 1 or 2 insurgent squads tended to go try and cap the VCP so if the Brits left 1 squad to defend the others would be able to take out the caches just that little bit easier, it also gives the insurgents something to do other than sit in a building with an RPG.

it would draw some of the insurgents away from the objectives. eversince the 0.756 basrah, brits almost always lose

[Tofurkeymeister]

To tell you the truth I don't agree with any of the suggestions (well, a few, but you get the idea). Granted, Al Basrah needs changing, but to me this is a turn in the wrong direction.

Bring back all the caches! It is more fun when you can sweep. More... insurgency-like.

More helicopters! Sure it may be a waste of tickets, but its fun, not to mention VERY realistic. An attack copter wouldn't hurt either...

I do see your point on some issues, though.

[Celestial1]

Originally Posted by Tirak

Perhaps not the render, but you should not be so close as to offer an easy shot from someone in the city. The rule of armor on Basrah is to never enter the city, too many lines of fire for an armored unit to defend against. An infantry screen will get you through the outskirts and even the villiage as the infantry screen will have found enemies hiding before they can get their shot off accurately, but if you enter the city, there is no tactic to combat that kind of stupidity. And while you may see a rifle or an RPG, if an insurgent was preparing to ambush you and knew he was being observed, he would not have such a weapon in sight, it would be hidden, either buried slightly in the sand or behind some kind of obstruction.

I've shot RPGs from about 500-600m from the edge of the city and hit armors with either the first or second shot. I've been hit by RPGs from about that distance. Don't give me that kind of BS.

I'm not talking about in the middle of the damn desert of Al Basrah. I've never shot or seen a civi out there (except for when ambushes to the East of Main are being staged, I'll occasionally see a civi). I'm talking about an insurgent on a rooftop near the outsides of the city. BF2's engine doesn't give that kind of ability to hide weapons. And that RPG would be ON HIS BACK, or IN HIS HANDS, if he was going to be attempting an ambush. They can hide behind something all they want, but their weapons would likely be in their hands getting ready to take a shot, or already shooting.

An infantry screen is not the problem. The infantry screen is good; but you're missing the fact that they're not going to climb every building in the area to check. "Oh, okay this one's a civi, oops this one was an insurgent I just got killed"

The. Problem. Is. The. Headgarb. Not. Rendering.

That's it, that's really it! If it rendered I wouldn't be saying a damn thing! But since it doesn't, there should be some minor way to say "hey, this guy doesn't have a gun, he's not going to kill us, let's not shoot him".