Deviation Changes

[Celestial1]

A lot of controversy has been going on about my Suppressing/Covering fire. You ALL have a right to express your opinion, but let's do it respectfully and get out some reasons for and against. For the love of a stressed Forums Moderator, please be civil in discussion.

Back we are again, with more suggestions to make firefights more risky. With the most recent installments, deviation has come down to "wait 2 seconds, fire perfect shot".

To counteract this, I suggest a deviation increase when:

-Recently running (high deviation)
-Recently walking (medium or low deviation)
-Recently crawling (low deviation)
-Changing stance (medium to low deviation)
-Completely rested [have not moved, changed stance etc. for a few seconds] (minor deviation)

Running and walking should really speak for themselves. Now, I don't know if it is hardcoded or not to implement deviation when changing stances, but it would be proper to simulate pulling the rifle's butt to your shoulder and stabilizing your aim. It would encourage less accurate shots when quickly popping up from crouched to standing, and would hit or land near to your target; there wouldn't be a 5 foot miss, but you may hit within a foot of where you aimed. Maybe, when you are raising from crouch to standing, you would have minor deviation. And vice versa. But when going from prone to stand/crouch, you would have a medium deviation as you have to reposition yourself much more (getting your feet under your body, repositioning your gun, lifting your body up).

For being completely rested, I suggest a very MINOR deviation, to simulate less than perfect natural aim. It's not the gun-it's the soldier; he can't hold perfectly still forever. Since gun sway is far too hard to implement correctly, a very slight deviation will simulate that inaccuracy. Perhaps the deviation could be removed when prone, or just after quite a bit longer amount of time (so that snipers, being trained to be the accuracy machines they are, can hit a target accurately after they have found their spot and observed the enemy for a bit).

Deviation from running would take quite a bit to wear off (a good 5-10 seconds) as you should be using running to get to cover, and get to teammates, you shouldn't be stopping between buildings to shoot accurately while running to a wounded soldier. You would still be able to fire relatively inaccurate shots from the hip while strafing temporarily to put some covering fire on that shifty bastard who won't stop firing at you. Walking, crawling and stance changing deviation would wear off relatively quickly (2-4 seconds) to allow for accurate fire immediately after setting your stance and reshouldering your weapon. The "constant innacuracy" should wear off in relatively the same amount as running. You would eventually calm your breating, get as comfortable as your gear allows, and your body would become more stiff as you get used to your position. This would allow especially snipers and marksman, but also a squad who needs to get as many enemies dead at once to begin a coordinated ambush.


Now, with all this, you might think that it would destroy the use of accurate fire in a firefight. That's your right to think so. However, if you've ever seen a firefight (believe it or not, youtube does carry some videos that don't suck), a soldier will pop his head out, fire a few shots to try to suppress the enemy, and gets back under cover, while other troops down the line do the same, until accurate fire can be delivered safely and effectively. Flanking will become a MUCH more useful tactic, if your flanking troops make sure to be unseen before opening fire, they can deliver accurate fire and have safety from a position the enemy had not seen beforehand.

(Watch this video to see some canadian troops in afghanistan in a firefight. Note how they peek from behind the wall, fire a few shots [note the gun's recoil and how they aren't waiting to deliver perfect shots, they are firing to scare the enemy, not to get a headshot] Canadian Firefight in Afghanistan )


I apologize for the ungodly long post, but I hope the information here is easily understood.

[Anderson29]

well i do agree that our virtual self is way more accurate than our real self...but how do u go about puting realistic aiming into a game...or even simulate it in game and make it a level playing field. IMO to simulate this w/o pissing most of this community off would be wait for a new engine. because we cant simulate weapon sway and we cant simulate breathing which is about 90% of aiming. so i think this will just have to wait to be implimented for a future engine.
with that being said. i would be for your deviation...but i think it should be a fixed deviation kinda like what the original ghost recon had....standing deviation is at its stationary greatest, kneeling is slightly more accurate and prone is at its most accurate, but not laser accurate.
though the fixed deviation would only be fixed when not moving...for example a person going stationary from running what wait maybe 3 seconds, walking 2 seconds and maybe the sprint bar should be added into the deviation effect. but i dont even think the above can be done so as it stands now is kinda alright...but im pretty much in favor of what ever makes the firefights last longer....

[tanky]

I think the deviation is already a bit too OTT imo (especially without an indicator). and having different levels of deviation without any indicator would drive me insane to the point of not playing the mod any more. In this thread people that use guns in real life say they are miles more accurate than the PR soldiers in real life, especially from the hip and whilst running, so really, further deviation sounds like it would be making it more unrealistic.

I see what your saying about the gameplay, but i dont think deviation is the way to go about it...if all the guns are crap accuracy you wont need to keep ducking behind the wall anyway! I dont think that level of realism simulation will be possible in PR gameplay, and if it was that realistic...would people enjoy it?

[[R-CON]nedlands1]

Originally Posted by Celestial1

To counteract this, I suggest a deviation increase when:

-Recently running (high deviation)

Already in-game.

Originally Posted by Celestial1

-Recently walking (medium or low deviation)
-Recently crawling (low deviation)

Not possible to differentiate between stance, as the deviation system is based on the time moving backward or forwards and side to side not the time walking, running or crawling. The code in question F.Y.I:

ObjectTemplate.SetSpeedDev x/y/z/w
Description: How much deviance to add for moving (walking/running):
x - maximum deviation to add
y - how much to add for each move forward/backwards
z - how much to add for each strafing move (moving sideways)
w - how much to reduce per server-frame (30 fps)

Originally Posted by Celestial1

-Changing stance (medium to low deviation)

Not possible as there is no code for it.

Originally Posted by Celestial1

-Completely rested [have not moved, changed stance etc. for a few seconds] (minor deviation)

Already in-game. Except for the changing stance condition.

[gazzthompson]

Originally Posted by Celestial1

Canadian Firefight in Afghanistan )

thats what PR fights should be like, not every 1 going for kill shots all the time... more people die in one round of basrah than the British army has lost during the hole war

[tanky]

Originally Posted by gazzthompson

thats what PR fights should be like, not every 1 going for kill shots all the time... more people die in one round of basrah than the British army has lost during the hole war

I would like to see this style of gameplay to, but those soldiers are in danger of loosing their lives, we in the game are not, so they HAVE to duck behind the wall, and are more than likely to be completely devoid of fun. in a game there is no 'must stay alive' incentive coz we know we are safe from harm...and a long spawn time is hardly the same. we've gotta remember that this is still a game and we have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise we are gonna overkill it. I still dont see how deviation would help recreate this style of combat featured in the clip...less accuracy means less need to hide behind cover I would have thought...

I saw this clip at the same time (link) and note how the soldiers dont stay in cover but rather move forward into the village head-on (not flanking), so its not all stay-behind-cover-and-miss-everyone...they killed 4 taliban for their gambled-efforts and bravery. You gotta have melon-sized balls to do that shit i swear...

[gazzthompson]

Originally Posted by tanky

I would like to see this style of gameplay to, but those soldiers are in danger of loosing their lives, we in the game are not, so they HAVE to duck behind the wall, and are more than likely to be completely devoid of fun. in a game there is no 'must stay alive' incentive coz we know we are safe from harm...and a long spawn time is hardly the same. we've gotta remember that this is still a game and we have to draw the line somewhere, otherwise we are gonna overkill it. I still dont see how deviation would help recreate this style of combat featured in the clip...less accuracy means less need to hide behind cover I would have thought...

I saw this clip at the same time (link) and note how the soldiers dont stay in cover but rather move forward into the village head-on (not flanking), so its not all stay-behind-cover-and-miss-everyone...they killed 4 taliban for their gambled-efforts and bravery. You gotta have melon-sized balls to do that shit i swear...

i defiantly agree 100% thats why we need artificial things like suppression effect and deviation, some 1 is remake the current deviation though and some ppl ballistics, so the current deviation is heavy WIP or even a placeholder

[Celestial1]

Originally Posted by Anderson29

i think it should be a fixed deviation kinda like what the original ghost recon had....standing deviation is at its stationary greatest, kneeling is slightly more accurate and prone is at its most accurate, but not laser accurate.

PR will likely not have a future engine. With the amount of work put into the game already, you would have to be nuts to ask PR's dev's to try to rework everything they've done into, say, Far Cry 2. So for now, a middle ground is the best thing to be achieved.

I'm usually all for Stance-Based deviation, but in this case it would promote diving to the ground the second you see an enemy. It causes too much vanilla gameplay, and shouldn't be encouraged. Prone should be used only when: Sniping, Diving to save your life, and hiding.

Originally Posted by tanky

I think the deviation is already a bit too OTT imo (especially without an indicator)... In this thread people that use guns in real life say they are miles more accurate than the PR soldiers in real life, especially from the hip and whilst running, so really, further deviation sounds like it would be making it more unrealistic.

We can't really simulate gun sway in BF2. That's the biggest problem. But you shouldn't need an indicator. You really don't. You don't have to "guess" when you're accurate. You have to get a feel for when YOU yourself have the right aim for it, and learn not to shoot directly after activity if you're going to be delivering accurate fire.

Or maybe it's just me. I've never had a problem with learning how to tell when I can make the shot.

None the less, the people who say that they are more accurate than the PR guns on the forums are not referring to an enemy that is shooting back, from long range.

Originally Posted by [R-CON]nedlands1

...Engine-restriction Information...

Granted, I don't expect many of my suggestions to make it through the engine. Many suggestions are just what I think could be done, given we had more than the limited resources given by the BF2 engine and not a hugely responsive engine such as Far Cry's or Crysis. I really mostly enjoy watching the discussion they produce.

However, the "staying still" deviation ends up being only 2 seconds until you can fire a dead on shot. Is there a way to gradually reduce deviation (Standing still, 2 seconds until normal deviation, 3-6 more seconds to deliver a spot-on shot) to allow for some bit of tactical position/timing?

[Cassius]

Originally Posted by Anderson29

well i do agree that our virtual self is way more accurate than our real self.

Actually with the g36 I fire to perfection on up to 500 - 800 meters, no dice in pr guess a mouse with a setting for resolution is a must. Or the g36 is so much better than the m16