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Old 12-24-2010, 05:51 AM   #1
anglomanii

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Default Indirect fires and the HMG

after observing the role of the new mortars, the effect of their indirect fire and the current use of static antitank weapons i would like to make a suggestion that i hope will add to the balance and play mechanics of the mod.

in my opinion the game currently lacks the effective employment of the fixed or static large caliber (12.7mm+) automatic weapons. as far as i am aware there is no current ability to use these weapons in a indirect fires capability, it would be my suggestion to add a C2 or equivalent type sighting system. Much like those used currently on the mortars i would envisage the indirect fire system to add range to the HMG but with the restriction of the mobility of the gun to respond to targets rapidly. My suggestion in part is in reaction to the current lack of effective use of HMG systems and the dominance of AT systems used as sniping platforms. I would think this is a system applicable to almost all factions and could possibly be added as another weapon slot on the static MG interface.
It may also be possible this could be used with smaller caliber fixed weapons at a later time.

i am sure there is much more too it and my inability to fully elaborate my idea is possibly due to the several liters of IRN BRU i have consumed today. (thank you bonny Scotland)

but please give me some feed back on my suggestion, i might be able to put some of the pieces together with some help.


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Old 12-24-2010, 06:26 AM   #2
Tarranauha200

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Default Re: Indirect fires and the HMG

Are you saying firing HMG`s beyond view distance using spotter? Interesting but could be ineffective when you have CAS, Mortars and AT quipment.
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:46 AM   #3
ComradeHX

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Default Re: Indirect fires and the HMG

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarranauha200 View Post
Are you saying firing HMG`s beyond view distance using spotter? Interesting but could be ineffective when you have CAS, Mortars and AT quipment.
That is the point.

You are wasting heavier firepower on a few people.


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Old 12-24-2010, 07:04 AM   #4
dtacs
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Default Re: Indirect fires and the HMG

Although suggestions to factions' equipment is not allowed, this raises a very good point that they lack any sighting systems when alot of M2's/NSV's etc. that we see in pictures nowadays have some sort of attached optics.

I support, however indirect fire will be a bit of a problem, that would be more suited to the Mk19 when that model is finished.
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:03 PM   #5
[R-DEV]Thermis
PR:BF2 Developer

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Default Re: Indirect fires and the HMG

Plunging fire hasn't been used tactically since the first world war. which is what you are suggesting, ie firing a weapon in an indirect fashion.

Optics do extend the range of high caliber crew served weapons in the real world, but they are never indirect, gunners almost always have a target that they are shooting at.

This suggestion is a very unrealistic way to achieve the end goal of giving 12.7mm weapons systems a more realistic range in game.

To my knowledge this has never been suggested before, though in my opinion it is a suggestion unlikely to go anywhere.
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Old 12-24-2010, 06:24 PM   #6
[R-DEV]Ninja2dan
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Default Re: Indirect fires and the HMG

Thermis is quite correct. While we grunts learn all about plunging fire and the beaten zone, it's something I have personally not seen used or even heard of it being used in modern combat for quite a while.

Generally, other indirect-fire weapon systems have been employed on the battlefield to fulfill that role, such as under-barrel and automatic grenade launchers, mortars, artillery, etc. As long as we have those systems available in PR, which perform the task much better, I don't see why you'd want to use an HMG for that purpose even if it was possible.


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Old 12-24-2010, 06:33 PM   #7
Jaymz
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Default Re: Indirect fires and the HMG

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Ninja2dan View Post
beaten zone
Isn't the term "Beaten Zone" applicable to any kind of automatic fire direct and/or indirect? Describing the area or pattern where the rounds impact?


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Old 12-24-2010, 06:59 PM   #8
[R-DEV]Ninja2dan
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Default Re: Indirect fires and the HMG

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Jaymz View Post
Isn't the term "Beaten Zone" applicable to any kind of automatic fire direct and/or indirect? Describing the area or pattern where the rounds impact?
Correct. When automatic weapons are fired in a burst or sustained mode, they create what is called the "Cone of fire". This means that a weapon mounted on even the most stable of mounts is going to have a variable amount of deviation that spits the rounds out into a cone-shaped pattern, which with heavier weapons is used intentionally.

The "Beaten zone" is the pattern that those rounds make as they impact the ground behind the cone of fire. This area of impact will vary in length and width depending on the slope of the terrain and the distance to the impact spot.


When firing an HMG at long ranges, the beaten zone is used to create an area of indirect fire. In theory, you could use such types of fire to cover dead zones within a sector of fire, but it's much less effective than simply using mortar/artillery or UGL/AGL grenade fire.

In the old days, soldiers would use HMG's for defilade fire. But again, the introduction of improved UGL and AGL weapons, mortars, etc has made this method less practical and rarely if ever used. Not to mention it's less accurate, and in some cases unsafe to friendly troops.


The beaten zone still applies to all automatic weapons fire today. What I meant was we learn about all aspects of the weapons systems, even those that really don't apply in modern combat anymore.


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Old 12-24-2010, 07:59 PM   #9
anglomanii

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Default Re: Indirect fires and the HMG

now i know i don't wear MA tags but please understand i am not making this stuff up. i am fully aware that this is a niche suggestion and i am not demanding this be implemented, it is simply a suggestion of a possibility.

while the practice of using Heavy MG's in the IDFSW role may not be currently employed with the US it is definitely in use with other countries, most countries do not have the vast resources available to the US military and often have to make do with less advanced but more cost effective systems. i base my finding from my familiarity with the ADF, which do employ the use of .50 cal weapons in the IDFSW role and in defilade positions and are actively using this system. currently the system is used to suppress enemy at range (out to 6000m) in support of a coordinated attack or to restrict movement of enemy by its employment.

to my knowledge the cone of fire is intended to produce a dispersal of munition around the intended line of fire and so increase the possibility of a hit on a point target at short or medium ranges, the beaten zone as i understand it it the pattern of impacts on the terrain as rounds impact at longer ranges. in theory this should mean at short to medium ranges the impacts should produce a long thin beaten zone with a wider shorter zone at longer ranges as the rounds impact from a steeper angle.

the reason behind my suggestion is to give another option to the players, allow for near continuous suppression at range(something not currently available), and be able to use sustained fire in a way that does not mean a HMG gunner has to be directly exposed to fire. i also contend this does not mean .50 rounds would be falling in the same manner as 81mm mortar rounds, i assume we all understand rounds would impact at a much shallower angle, thus limiting its effect in urban area's but making it more desirable in the more open environs which i would hope may encourage some more coordinated maneuver within teams.


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