Add JDAMs to Attack Jets.

[TheLean]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Ninja2dan

So for those wondering why we have a JDAM in PR, it's to offer the team a limited-use (either by time delay or quantity) precision-strike weapon with a payload larger than what is normally available on aircraft of that map. Examples of proper PR JDAM use would be when you have a bunker or base that needs knocked out and flying an attack sortie with low-alt aircraft would be too risky, or if you need to hit a precision target and no other immediate support is available. And I'm talking about life-and-death win-or-lose targets here like a group of armor or the enemy building an FB right outside your camp. You should not be using the JDAM to smash a single tank or flatten just one squad of infantry. This is what the other assets are for.

Thanks for your extensive replys to this thread so far. You said that 2000 pound bombs can be used to take out groups of armor, I was just curious to what extent the bombs are effective even if they dont hit dead on. I guess of course there are alot of factors at play here, such as the angle the armor is facing, eventual obstacles in the way and composition and hardness of the ground. Do you have any idea what the effect would be on say, a t-72 tank facing the blast with its side, no obstacles, and hard desert soil similar to Kashan if a 2000 pound bomb is dropped 10 meters away? What about 30 meters?

Of course the question cannot be answered with a precise answer unless there have been extensive real life testing on the subject, but maybe you have a hunch on how far away the tank must be to be considered "safe" and by that i mean no penetration of the armor and a crew that survives, even if they are dazed and shocked.

[Donatello]

68vs68 opinions
your future in my hands now!

[arjan]

and mines ;D
We will prevail!

[CAS_117]

Originally Posted by TheLean

Thanks for your extensive replys to this thread so far. You said that 2000 pound bombs can be used to take out groups of armor, I was just curious to what extent the bombs are effective even if they dont hit dead on. I guess of course there are alot of factors at play here, such as the angle the armor is facing, eventual obstacles in the way and composition and hardness of the ground. Do you have any idea what the effect would be on say, a t-72 tank facing the blast with its side, no obstacles, and hard desert soil similar to Kashan if a 2000 pound bomb is dropped 10 meters away? What about 30 meters?

You just gotta know who to ask.

(from back in my dev days...)

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-10801.html

Originally Posted by Gums

Salute!

Having dropped thousands of the Mk-82's, a few hundred Mk-81's and Mk-83's and a few dozen Mk-84's:

- Mk-82's with "instant" fuze are good for shrapnel, not much blast. We could drop one within 10 meters of a truck and it kept rolling on blown tires. Frags went out a few hundred meters, and I picked one up when following too close to my lead one day. Pissed off crewchief, but no bad damage - thing was size of a hot dog weiner

The fuze extender helped with the frags and was great for troops in the open - maybe 30-40 meter lethal radius.

We dropped on an AAA or artillery gun one day and had to have the gun within the crater to take it out. Figure 5 meters radius.

- The Mk-81 250's had about the same frag pattern as the 500 pound Mk-82. Not much blast, but good for bunhers if you got a 5 meter error.

- MK-83's had slightly more frag than Mk-82, but lots better blast.

- Mk-84 had great blast, but frags were,'t much more then Mk-82 or Mk-83. They were best used witjh small delays for hard tgts. The newer 2000 pounders with the penetrating design were lots better for hard tgts. I-2000 comes to mind, but that one is 20 years old.

Hope that helps

Gums sends ....

[[R-DEV]Ninja2dan]

Originally Posted by TheLean

Thanks for your extensive replys to this thread so far. You said that 2000 pound bombs can be used to take out groups of armor, I was just curious to what extent the bombs are effective even if they dont hit dead on. I guess of course there are alot of factors at play here, such as the angle the armor is facing, eventual obstacles in the way and composition and hardness of the ground. Do you have any idea what the effect would be on say, a t-72 tank facing the blast with its side, no obstacles, and hard desert soil similar to Kashan if a 2000 pound bomb is dropped 10 meters away? What about 30 meters?

Of course the question cannot be answered with a precise answer unless there have been extensive real life testing on the subject, but maybe you have a hunch on how far away the tank must be to be considered "safe" and by that i mean no penetration of the armor and a crew that survives, even if they are dazed and shocked.

While munitions such as the Mk 84 and any associated variants (such as the GBU-24 Paveway, GBU-31 JDAM, etc) are generally not used against multiple armored/heavy vehicles, they are still capable of taking them out. But my reference to using the JDAM to take out multiple armor was intended towards PR and not real-life use.

The Mk 84 contains about 945lbs of Tritonal, which gives the munition a lot of blast power. While the explosion would cause some fragmentation, the shrapnel would do minimal damage to armored vehicles. You'd probably tear up any personnel equipment that was stored outside, you could damage un-armored optics systems and weapons mounts, and with the right hit you might even be able to damage a track link. But overall, the fragment damage to an MBT that is buttoned up will be pretty minimal.

The blast damage though, that is something to watch out for. The dynamic overpressure created by the Mk 84 warhead is very large, and if close enough to an armored vehicle it can cause damage to the vehicle and its occupants. Another factor due to blast is the crater created, which can actually bury an entire tank alive. In the soil type mentioned, I would guess the crater would be around 30-35 feet wide and maybe 15-20 feet deep.


In PR though, the JDAM and other larger aircraft munitions are capable of defeating armor without direct contact. This is due to the way the damage is dealt in game, and we have no visible fragments or shock waves. We also don't have craters in PR, and I doubt it's even possible.

In reality, we wouldn't be using a single-warhead munition against multiple armored targets. There are quite a few other munitions available that are specifically designed for that purpose, and are much more effective. But because we don't have such munitions available in PR, I think it's not too far-fetched to be using a JDAM in the middle of a tank column.


As for my opinion on at what range an MBT would be considered "safe" from a Mk 84 (or similar) blast? I know that I wouldn't want to be any closer than say 20m, which is probably close enough for the overpressure to seriously jack you up. Maybe 30-40m would be survivable against the 2000-pounder, not sure. I guess it comes down to, which would you rather be...Dead or a Carrot?

[TheLean]

Thank you very much for your replies and being carrot is indeed not something to desire. A cucumber maybe, but a carrot, no. A mango on the other hand..

[boilerrat]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Ninja2dan

While munitions such as the Mk 84 and any associated variants (such as the GBU-24 Paveway, GBU-31 JDAM, etc) are generally not used against multiple armored/heavy vehicles, they are still capable of taking them out. But my reference to using the JDAM to take out multiple armor was intended towards PR and not real-life use.

The Mk 84 contains about 945lbs of Tritonal, which gives the munition a lot of blast power. While the explosion would cause some fragmentation, the shrapnel would do minimal damage to armored vehicles. You'd probably tear up any personnel equipment that was stored outside, you could damage un-armored optics systems and weapons mounts, and with the right hit you might even be able to damage a track link. But overall, the fragment damage to an MBT that is buttoned up will be pretty minimal.

The blast damage though, that is something to watch out for. The dynamic overpressure created by the Mk 84 warhead is very large, and if close enough to an armored vehicle it can cause damage to the vehicle and its occupants. Another factor due to blast is the crater created, which can actually bury an entire tank alive. In the soil type mentioned, I would guess the crater would be around 30-35 feet wide and maybe 15-20 feet deep.


In PR though, the JDAM and other larger aircraft munitions are capable of defeating armor without direct contact. This is due to the way the damage is dealt in game, and we have no visible fragments or shock waves. We also don't have craters in PR, and I doubt it's even possible.

In reality, we wouldn't be using a single-warhead munition against multiple armored targets. There are quite a few other munitions available that are specifically designed for that purpose, and are much more effective. But because we don't have such munitions available in PR, I think it's not too far-fetched to be using a JDAM in the middle of a tank column.


As for my opinion on at what range an MBT would be considered "safe" from a Mk 84 (or similar) blast? I know that I wouldn't want to be any closer than say 20m, which is probably close enough for the overpressure to seriously jack you up. Maybe 30-40m would be survivable against the 2000-pounder, not sure. I guess it comes down to, which would you rather be...Dead or a Carrot?

Are there any airburst fuses on any of those JDAM + dumb bomb kits? Wouldn't that be more effective against armor?

[[R-DEV]Ninja2dan]

Originally Posted by boilerrat

Are there any airburst fuses on any of those JDAM + dumb bomb kits? Wouldn't that be more effective against armor?

All of the Mk 80-series warheads are capable of using a large variety of fuzes, just like artillery rounds. You select the fuze depending on the target specifics. For armor, you can either attempt direct-impact targeting or you can try near-direct targeting. For armor, a direct hit is usually not done because the guidance CEP is not low enough to give 100% hit probability (unless using LJDAM or similar with backup laser guidance). Against armor though, a direct hit isn't required with such munitions, the blast wave and overpressure when close enough are still capable of destroying or disabling the vehicle and likely killing the crew.

In real life air-bursting fuzes are the better option against armor, as it helps make the blast cover more distance and avoid ground cover. Remember that the shrapnel is only going to do minimal damage to heavy armor, it's the blast that does the hurt. But we don't really have that option in PR that I'm aware of.

[DrugKoala]

But what is actually the point of Tier 3 Area attack? Should it be something that will clear the whole area or just do more damage than mortars and 105mm arty or what?

If it's something to clear out a huge area, then maybe 2 ATACMS rockets with cluster munition should do the trick... But not sure.

[[R-DEV]Ninja2dan]

Originally Posted by DrugKoala

But what is actually the point of Tier 3 Area attack? Should it be something that will clear the whole area or just do more damage than mortars and 105mm arty or what?

If it's something to clear out a huge area, then maybe 2 ATACMS rockets with cluster munition should do the trick... But not sure.

All of the support strike options in PR are currently being revised and updated, to include much more realistic effects (damage). Basically the total support available will be mortars, artillery, and JDAM. Those are the non-player controlled assets, player-controlled air and mortar support will also be available. I'm not saying when, just saying that they are eventually going to be used if current plans follow through.

As for the JDAM strikes, after the update the overall function and use of the JDAM munitions will be changing quite a bit. I'm not going to say too much, other than they have been updated to improve their function.


Generally, the JDAM should be used for single hard targets or closely-clustered targets of priority in which artillery would not be sufficient or is unavailable. Artillery will generally cover a larger area and have a greater duration, but the initial devestation will be less. How the different assets are used in PR will depend on the design of the maps, what assets are made available, and how the individual commanders choose to use those assets.


Regarding the use of ICM/DPICM munitions in any fashion, that is being discussed. From my understanding, it was attempted in the past but proved too laggy to work properly, or there were issues on client/server syncing. If such munitions can eventually be coded to work properly, then they might be added. But the use of ATACMS is generally less-common than regular 155mm ICM/DPICM rounds, but will have an overall similar effect. The ATACMS are also used much less often than the standard M26 series rockets when the M270 is deployed.