Complete civilian ROE revamp

[badmojo420]

Coalition main bases have a dome of death, so there will be no civilians running around in a military base.

Maybe civilians should be arrested if they're within 20m of a firebase. But, even without that, whats the worst a civie could do to your firebase? Tell his friends? Watch where people run to? Stand in front of the HMG?

You're making a big deal out of nothing.

[[EC]DR.NOobFragger]

I think some people are forgetting they aren't civilians, they are collaborators. That means they are working with the enemy so you can arrest them and interrogate them since they are out running around with a squad of insurgents.

[badmojo420]

Some people are forgetting that? Maybe. Me personally? No, i keep that in mind at all times. It doesn't change the fact that a collaborator cannot be easily identified just by looking at him. It's his actions that decide his true nature. Something the current system lacks.

[[EC]DR.NOobFragger]

Originally Posted by badmojo420

Some people are forgetting that? Maybe. Me personally? No, i keep that in mind at all times. It doesn't change the fact that a collaborator cannot be easily identified just by looking at him. It's his actions that decide his true nature. Something the current system lacks.

If they don't want to be considered suspicious they shouldn't be hanging around a squad of Insurgent wielding AK-47s. If they don't want to be blow up by a tank or APC round they shouldn't be hanging around RPG guys. IRL you would be able to see a medic bag and grappling hook hanging off of them and I guarantee if a soldier saw that in Iraq they would stop them and ask questions, restraining them can be considered the same thing. Since in PR you cannot make AI civilians walking around to differentiate the two, we could just assume all the regular civies are hiding inside their house's because they see Insurgent and Blufor troops moving around en masse. So if you saw a civilian like the above described you would stop him and ask questions.

[badmojo420]

Originally Posted by [EC]DR.NOobFragger

If they don't want to be considered suspicious they shouldn't be hanging around a squad of Insurgent wielding AK-47s. If they don't want to be blow up by a tank or APC round they shouldn't be hanging around RPG guys. IRL you would be able to see a medic bag and grappling hook hanging off of them and I guarantee if a soldier saw that in Iraq they would stop them and ask questions, restraining them can be considered the same thing. Since in PR you cannot make AI civilians walking around to differentiate the two, we could just assume all the regular civies are hiding inside their house's because they see Insurgent and Blufor troops moving around en masse. So if you saw a civilian like the above described you would stop him and ask questions.

Did you not just summarize the system McLuv wants? If they don't want to be considered suspicious, they stay away from insurgents and stay unarmed. If they use their items or help insurgents, they can be arrested.

The whole point of an unarmed collaborator is to blend in with the rest of the civies. Their equipment wouldn't be hanging off their belt for the whole world to see. It's only when they do anything suspicious that they should be stopped and questioned.

[Tirak]

IMHO, the civi needs to go back to the way they were back in .75. Take away the medi bag, give his spawn time a reduction to 15-20 seconds and put in all the coalition punishments that used to be in place. Back in .75 you did not shoot civies. You went way the hell out of your way to avoid shooting civis. Why? Because you knew that your next spawn time would see a massive increase, and theirs would be over faster than normal. Did you on occasion make a judgment call to take them out knowing the penalty? Yes. Is that judgment call realistic? Yes. Were there obvious exploits in the system through Human Shields? Of course, but the Human shields never were half as broken as the class is now. You want players to treat civis the "right way"? Fine, make the benefits obvious and simple, don't go through convoluted rules systems that only work some of the time. Context sensitive ROEs, moral questions about the civi being a target or not, trying to make the civi a medic, all of these things don't work, in my opinion. Put it the way it was back in .75 and you'll see those realistic judgment calls about whether or not it's worth it to kill that civi on the roof 'cause he's looking at you with his binos. Put it the way it was back in .75 and you'll see the kit being used properly again. Put it the way it was back in .75 and you'll see coalition soldiers thinking before shooting, as the class was meant to be to begin with.

[Trooper909]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Eddie Baker

There's a reason that the so-called civilian is on the opposing side, because it is the enemy. The "civilian" misnomer should never have been applied to that class to begin with. He is no longer a civilian, he is a an unarmed combatant supporting the insurgents.

sooo point of the class mr advisor man?so what he is is the same as all other insurgents classes just unarmed?if that what is intended than i say delete it all together as no one will ever pick it
just give us a medic with a musket or somthing or a bluderbus.

Is a game after all and having a healbot with no weapons,extra long spawntime,etc is a class that only a fool would play because none of the above is fun is pointless and just taking up space were a better class could go.

i quote you because you have the only post that carries weight and reflecs what the makers of this game want to do with the class and how i discriped it is exactly how the class is even now and i cant think of one person who could say im wrong tbh.

[Qaiex]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Eddie Baker

There's a reason that the so-called civilian is on the opposing side, because it is the enemy. The "civilian" misnomer should never have been applied to that class to begin with. He is no longer a civilian, he is a an unarmed combatant supporting the insurgents.

Maybe.. But the laws of war clearly state that under no circumstances are soldiers allowed to shoot unarmed people, even if they are enemy combatants.
As soon as someone doesn't carry a firearm, they're no longer a valid target.

[wookimonsta]

Originally Posted by qaiex

Maybe.. But the laws of war clearly state that under no circumstances are soldiers allowed to shoot unarmed people, even if they are enemy combatants.
As soon as someone doesn't carry a firearm, they're no longer a valid target.

laws of war? do you mean the geneva convention?

[Taliban-IED]

Originally Posted by McLuv

Well, I can't exactly say civilian ROE changes haven't been suggested before, but I would like to start by saying that though I've alluded to this suggestion in previous related threads, there has never been any discussion or much response in relationship to them. Add to that the fact that using the search function has not revealed any matches, I'll begin.

The civilian/collaborator class has been an extreme in PR for a few builds. Going from the extremely notable cannon fodder of 0.75 to the extremely rare and punishing kit of 0.8-0.86. So, I'd like to suggest completely revamping the ROEs to a playable middle ground where the civilian is played properly, if played at all.

My ROE would be as follows:


1. Civilians will never be allowed to be shot. Shooting a civilian will never be allowable within the ROEs of the coalition, under any circumstance (IE, no slugshots, either).
2. Coalition will receive an updated punishment system, including:

• Every time they kill a civilian, their name is displayed in the top left in a similar fashion to the "Player_name destroyed his own cache and is a traitor"
• Any civilian kill ups your respawn by 60 seconds.
• Your second consecutive civilian kill within a life leads to a court martial (with the added spawn time of both kills)
• After the third kill in a game, player's score is reset (like in 0.85), and another court martial.

3. If a civilian is killed within 3 meters of any insurgent, then the civilian will be punished with an extra 120 seconds.
4. Civilians are no longer able to be arrested on a whim. The only time an arrest will be allowable is within 180 seconds of:

• Pulling out their rocks/cellphone.
• Being within 10 meters of an insurgent
• Being within 10 meters of a weapons cache.

5. Civilians arrested "legally" will receive another 60 seconds on their respawn.
6. Coalition troops will loose one intelligence point for false arrests, but will only be punished with an extra 30 seconds to their spawn time.
7. Civilian normal respawn time will be reduced to 30 seconds.



That's pretty much it. Now, to back it up before people start denouncing the entire suggestion over iddy-biddy points. Most of it can be tweaked, but overall it should stay the same. Anyways, here's my explanation for each point:

#1: Pretty much summed up, shooting any unarmed civilian is never justified, and should never go unpunished.
#2: Slightly more direct punishments than previously, including the text message. The first kill's punishment is relatively light and not too apparent, but it's a slightly more lenient punishment.
#3: Duh, no more human shield problems. No, you'll still be punished for shoting them, but they'll be punished a whole lot more.
#4: Civilians are never a direct threat to you, but if it is perceived that they are doing suspicious activities or may indirectly be a threat to you (rocks/cellphones), then you'll have the opportunity to catch them and arrest them.
#5: Punishment for being caught on the civilian's part, meaning they'll no longer be giving free intel like supposedly in 0.75.
#6: Not really severe, in all honesty, but this represents the Coalition loosing civilian trust, as well as being reprimanded for doing so.
#7: Without the problems of human shields being formed subsiding due to my previous points, civilians no longer need to be punished for using the kit.

Please post your comments/feedback of this, and remember that this is just a rough outline and any point can be changed if it's seen as beneficial to the overall suggestion, but I believe this will be a huge improvement in gameplay already..

nice idea