Separating the Civilian from the Collaborator

[McLuv]

Originally Posted by Sars99

those ROEs are pefect im[flashylights]o[/flashylights], it made me laugh when a guy could run up to a civilian who'd done nothing punch them and the civilian gets the punishment for doing nothing.

Yar, but it'd still be like that, but why is every one so intent on being able to dispose of civilians in some way or another or of eliminating civilian "herds" ?

1) If everyone on the enemy team is a civilian, then you should be happy! They are already far more underpowered, so look at what this'll mean.
2) Everyone's under the impression that they should be able to arrest civilians at any time, and shoot them on some occassions, but that shouldn't be. The ROEs should NEVER allow shooting a civi, and arrests should only be made in suspicious activity (1 minute after having used the rocks, first aid, cellphone, or binoculars).
3) Even if you can't ever shoot a civilian, and don't get the chance to arrest him, SO WHAT? What is he going to do to you? He could walk upto and beside you, even, and not do anything suspicious/endagering to you.

Adapt to the new situations, evolve your tactics, and think. If anything's typical FPS, it's the thought that everything should be able to be killed, and these are simply exemplifying that.

[snooggums]

Originally Posted by Anderson29

look if u lower the civi spawn time they will come at the coalition troops in herds running circles around them in the middle of a firefight trying to get shot on purpose... which is unrealistic and is what happened in.75 and thus why it was changed. even if the kit is limited it will still happen.......

In my example there would only be 2 or up to 9 total civilians on the team. I'd prefer just the two. If so, then any squad of civi looking guys over 3 total are going to be valid ROE an can be killed (max 2 civis and a collaborator).

Originally Posted by wookimonsta

instantly killing the people who kill a civilian with his hands raised isnt the idea either.
i've sat in an apc firing into a house that had the cache in it. inside there were 3 rpgs that were trying to fire out at us, and a civilian suddenly popped up in front of the window with his hands up. i shot him by accident as i had been firing at that very window, but what was i supposed to do? if i had died immediatly, it would've meant that the apc would've had no gunner and the team no cover.

In the suggestion that civi would be a fair target because they would be within 30m of a cache or another Insurgent and be a valid target. The only time you wold die as a vehicle gunner is when you shoot a lone civi with no other valid targets (which encourages fire discipline).

[snooggums]

Originally Posted by McLuv

Yar, but it'd still be like that, but why is every one so intent on being able to dispose of civilians in some way or another or of eliminating civilian "herds" ?

1) If everyone on the enemy team is a civilian, then you should be happy! They are already far more underpowered, so look at what this'll mean.
2) Everyone's under the impression that they should be able to arrest civilians at any time, and shoot them on some occassions, but that shouldn't be. The ROEs should NEVER allow shooting a civi, and arrests should only be made in suspicious activity (1 minute after having used the rocks, first aid, cellphone, or binoculars).
3) Even if you can't ever shoot a civilian, and don't get the chance to arrest him, SO WHAT? What is he going to do to you? He could walk upto and beside you, even, and not do anything suspicious/endagering to you.

Adapt to the new situations, evolve your tactics, and think. If anything's typical FPS, it's the thought that everything should be able to be killed, and these are simply exemplifying that.

Making the ROEs allow shooting a civilian takes care of the silly human shield usage and killing a civi you can't see with explosives when you are trying to kill a real insurgent. With those ROEs in place the shooter should be highly punished for shooting a civi outside ROE.

[McLuv]

Originally Posted by snooggums

Making the ROEs allow shooting a civilian takes care of the silly human shield usage and killing a civi you can't see with explosives when you are trying to kill a real insurgent. With those ROEs in place the shooter should be highly punished for shooting a civi outside ROE.

No, they don't. I have yet to see civilians taking out their medic bags while running around 3 meters from an insurgent. Wanna take care of human shields? Do so:

1) Make it so they are never out of the ROEs, and can never be shot without prevention.
2) If they are shot within 3 meters of an insurgent, the colaition still gets it's punishment, but this time the civi gets the current default timer (120 seconds, whilst if they weren't doing that, they'd only have the ~30 second timer).

Done. And guess what? The kit is also playable, and ROEs make sense, and solving the problem actually solves it, rather than making matters worse.

[snooggums]

Originally Posted by McLuv

No, they don't. I have yet to see civilians taking out their medic bags while running around 3 meters from an insurgent. Wanna take care of human shields? Do so:

1) Make it so they are never out of the ROEs, and can never be shot without prevention.
2) If they are shot within 3 meters of an insurgent, the colaition still gets it's punishment, but this time the civi gets the current default timer (120 seconds, whilst if they weren't doing that, they'd only have the ~30 second timer).

Done. And guess what? The kit is also playable, and ROEs make sense, and solving the problem actually solves it, rather than making matters worse.

I'm talking about the ROE's from my first post, which does not have anything to do with the medic bag, instead it uses the distance to another insurgent or cache. A civi by himself would have a big punishment but a civi who is sticking around insurgents would be a fair target since it's too hard to tell them from a collaborator, and gets rid of the civi trying to block the enemy as a human shield (since there's no reason to shoot near a civi unless there is an enemy behind him because they pose no threat).

If you make it so the civi cannot ever be shot without punishing BluFor they will just be human shields again, which the Dev's don't want. Giving them a 2 minute timer and also punish the enemy still makes them worth being human shields. If they gain zero benefit from being a shield the behavior will stop.

[McLuv]

No, because the only time they are ever used as human shields is when they are within 3-5 meters of an insurgent, and if they are such they will be punished, but it doesn't matter if they are being used as human shields, you should still get the punishments. But they won't get the human shields, because as we've seen from the lack of civilians, having even a 120 second spawn time really detracts from playing as an unarmed player.

When has it ever been excusable for the coalition to shoot civilians? Even when they may be used as human shields (which happens alot it would seem in real life) they are never justified. WHy should it be ingame that it's allowed? It would just happen so very rarely since if they open fire it'll be a lose-lose situation. But then again... How has an unarmed civilian guarding (and giving the position away of) an insurgent armed with far worse weaponry for the most part stand up against entire squads with high quality kits, and huge support?

That's all I dislike about the suggestion, the ROEs. Not that I disagree that civilians shouldn't be punished for dying as human shields, but I believe that making it 1 minute within 30 meters of a cache or insurgent detracts from the purpose.

[myles]

Good suggestion i like the way the collaberter kinda feels more like one of the insurgents and i love the way u have a proper civi whos kinda neutral but i think the proper whopper civi should not be able to get areested or ran over or shot in a car (if hes on his own) i think the blufor should just have to think thats a civi dont kill him or arrest him at all.

[USMCMIDN]

Originally Posted by McLuv

I like the Kit load outs, but not the ROEs.

Civilians shouldn't even be arrested unless they have used their rocks, or when they are found within 10 meters of an insurgent within the last minute, perhaps making them suspicious.

Collaborators shouldn't be shot unless they've used their molotovs or ammo bags within the last 3 minutes, but otherwise everything else they are capable of doing wouldn't seem to pose any immediate life threat to any Coalition soldiers, but they could be arrested if they use their Binos, Cell Phone, shovel, or medic bag.

O, and reduce the spawn time drastically, I don't care if there may be a few small side effects, it's still way better than punishing players for the Coalition's run-and-gun attitude.

Great idea but also know in real life civilians in hot zones are arrested or apprehended by all nato forces to safely get them out of a hot zone and to ensure civilian safety and troop safety I.e if a "civilian" had a weapon and the coalition forces were to try to get him out w/o cuffing him that "civilian" can cause harm to those same coalition troops that are trying to help.