PR Aerospace Improvement: Airports and Runways for Jet Aircraft

[Maxfragg]

trust me, it would look awfull on qinling, if you don't belive it, get Rising Conflicst, and look at their runways, simply awfull

[Emnyron]

Ker BUMP.
Warren have points, Good points, they shoud be adressed!

[M.Warren]

Now, I don't mean to cause any disruption to a thread that has otherwise remained quiet for the last 3 days. But I think that a small handful of pilots that even includes myself are at least in order for some sort of reply on the situation that's been presented here.

I had left this thread to remain idle for a few days assuming that there may have been an attempt to try and investigate the final problems Jet Aircraft in PR face by the PR team or any available community member. The primary focus of this topic is mostly directed at the J-10 and the only two Fighter Bomber jets we have available; the GR4 Tornado and the SU-30 Flanker.

My previous post of questions: PR Aerospace Improvement: Airports and Runways for Jet Aircraft #66

To make my last post more concise I'll cut it down shorter. Basically what I am trying to explain is this:

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ObjectTemplate.setAcceleration -
This template may be thought to be causing a number of problems. I feel that the Acceleration and Deceleration of the J-10 aircraft is adequate or could be increased slightly to allow faster speeding or slowing of the aircraft. It appears to be sufficient at this time though.

However... The GR4 Tornado and the SU-30 are in need of tweaking to allow the aircraft to come to a halt within a standardized amount of time within the length of the runway. Although the GR4 fairs better than the SU-30 by far, it still has a tendency to run off the end of the runway on sloppy but not terribly poor landings.

ObjectTemplate.setWingLift and ObjectTemplate.setFlapLift -
Although these factors have been explained to be minor and inaccurate, I believe they should be rechecked for inadequacies for the J-10, GR4 Tornado and the SU-30. Reason why I point these factors out is to potentially cite problems where the aircraft in question may not be having enough lift to remain aloft on landing approaches.

Furthermore to check if the aircraft in question has sufficient maneuverability to pitch the aircraft up at slower speeds where most other aircraft of the same category do not experience such problems.

ObjectTemplate.setTorque and ObjectTemplate.setDifferential -
I feel that these factors are the largest issue for the J-10. This excludes the GR4 Tornado and the SU-30 as they do not have a tendency to drop out of the air at lower altitudes on approach. The J-10 has been specifically noted to have this unique characteristic of stalling at lower altitudes despite being capable of significantly lower speeds than most other aircraft at medium altitudes.

The pictures provided in the above link show the J-10 stalling at 420kmh on approach, whereas it had been capable of holding it's altitude at a miraculously low speed of 300kmh at an altitude of 200 meters. The J-10 doesn't seem to have enough "Torque" or "Oomph" to keep it aloft and notably drags it's tail at higher angles in comparison to other Jet Aircraft which may be the leading cause of landing failures.

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With that said, I feel that a majority of aircraft in PR are not exactly "standardized" or set to adhere to strict guidelines. As sensitive as aircraft are, they are subjected to more critical factors than normal vehicles. Cars, APC's, Tanks and Helicopters are quite simple in nature. You simply "Go" and it'll do the rest. However Jet Aircraft are probably the closest to manual operation of a vehicle that PR will ever face.

Thus, it should be understood that Aircraft are not some sort of regular vehicle, but instead subjected to higher and exacting standards. Especially when airfields are no longer than 600 meters, meaning that they HAVE TO land and take off within that length of runway. It simply is not an option, it is a critical requirement.

Simply put, aircraft are what I call "Instruments of Flight". They're sensitive scientific equipment, you obviously don't abuse them and expect it to remain finely calibrated.

Some good guidelines are:

1. Aircraft must be capable of taking off and landing/stopping within a critical maximum range of 475-525 meters of a 600 meter runway under the circumstances of an average landing. Although if the Jet Aircraft can land or take off in less than that amount, it is deemed suitable providing it's logically realistic as possible.

<Note: This will hopefully encourage a pilot to continue landing aircraft in a professional manner by landing his/her aircraft in an average or excellent manner. Poor and reckless landings may result in the destruction of the aircraft. This will award skilled pilots incentive to continue with their efforts and dissuade players that may be unfit for this type of role.>

2. Aircraft must be capable of taking off and landing with adequate wing lift and flap lift properties to prevent unnecessary stalling of the Jet Aircraft by design flaws.

3. Aircraft must be capable of taking off and landing with adequate engine torque properties to prevent unnecessary stalling of the Jet Aircraft by design flaws.

4. Aircraft must be capable of taking off and landing with adequate engine differential properties to prevent unnecessary stalling of the Jet Aircraft by design flaws.

5. Aircraft must be capable of deploying it's landing gear prior to landing at lower air speeds to prevent unnecessary belly landings or destruction of the Jet Aircraft by design flaws.

[CAS_117]

2. Aircraft must be capable of taking off and landing with adequate wing lift and flap lift properties to prevent unnecessary stalling of the Jet Aircraft by design flaws.

Saying stalling is unnecessary is like saying that driving in a ditch is unnecessary. Its not a design feature its a fact of life. This also increases the planes turn rate, as well as causing it to pitch up when in level flight.

3. Aircraft must be capable of taking off and landing with adequate engine torque properties to prevent unnecessary stalling of the Jet Aircraft by design flaws.

Again, torque doesn't really affect the takeoff speed. Differential is closer, but what both of these do cause is an either higher or lower maximum speed.

4. Aircraft must be capable of taking off and landing with adequate engine differential properties to prevent unnecessary stalling of the Jet Aircraft by design flaws.

See above.

5. Aircraft must be capable of deploying it's landing gear prior to landing at lower air speeds to prevent unnecessary belly landings or destruction of the Jet Aircraft by design flaws.

Um, I have not heard of a plane belly landing except this one time in a harrier when I did kindof. But still if you're going slow enough to stall, then the gear will already be down, in which case all that can affect you is how high you are. And if its too high then you're pretty screwed. Besides, most of the plane now will have their gear down soon enough. Allowing them to fly slower won't affect that.

...900 words to say "I agree with you CAS".

But do you realize that those things you list ARE what would hypothetically cause the aircraft's design flaws?

Most factors in the plane are not independent of each other.

Lift MUST = Weight or the thing starts doing loops and climbing causing you to stall, or doing likely turns, going inverted and crashing, or going out of bounds. The list goes on. Balancing winglift as well as the pitch offset is very tedious.

What you don't get is for EVERY PLANE I spend HOURS and HOURS making sure that it can fly straight. There is no shortcut other than repeatedly loading up the game over and over and adjusting lift factors by tenths and hundredths. This is made even more complicated by the air density differing on each map by kilometers in some cases. Yes for a few of them I had to do a rush job but honestly I hadn't had any problems landing with them, so I didn't really care at the time.

[M.Warren]

I had already anticipated that the wording of "design flaws" would specifically attract criticism and be misinterpreted. Due to the critical nature of these topics, I'd expect such details to be dissected.

Yes, there should be stalling in game it's clearly obvious why. Just as a modern jet is capable of doing so in reality, it only makes sense that such an event in game would be logical. Stalling is part of the game and there is no intentions on removing it whatsoever.

The perspective that I am trying to point out is that the J-10 has a tendency to stall from generally unprovoked conditions that are outside the norm and unique problems to this aircraft in particular. One moment you'll be on approach to a controlled landing at a set throttle. The next moment you descend gently with your aircraft from a mere 100 meters and a moment later without reducing your throttle in any way, it simply drops to the ground out of nowhere. No other aircraft I know has such a consistent overtone to fall from the sky on a landing approach.

Just as a reference, I had used the AV-8 Harrier avidly on the Training servers. It still handles better than a J-10 on several levels and I happen to take a large amount of pride in being able to manipulate it sufficiently even in it's current incomplete state. Despite the fact that it does not transition from Vertical to Horizontal flight or vice versa sufficiently. Or the fact that the landing gear does not properly drop and has to be coaxed into deploying. This is usually done by flying at low altitudes and reducing your throttle to 47% for the landing preparation sequence to initiate.

Originally Posted by CAS_117

Again, torque doesn't really affect the takeoff speed. Differential is closer, but what both of these do cause is an either higher or lower maximum speed.

Understood. But that's not exactly the point I'm trying to convey. All 9 of 9 Jet Aircraft in PR are capable of taking off. The real issue is that 3 of 9 Jet Aircraft cannot be landed properly by average users. The sooner all aircraft have been deemed capable of taking off, flying and being landed smoothly is when true satisfaction will be reached.

At any rate, this discussion can go on and on without an end in sight. Fact of the matter is it really doesn't matter to me on how it's fixed. For me, the end justifies the means and whatever gets the job done to the fullest extent works. It'd be nice to see some concrete and positive final results.

The least that can be done is to let the small community of pilots here in PR know if they'll ever have something to look forward to. This is in regards to the final repairs and solutions prepared to make our already limited Jet Aircraft experience complete and thoroughly functional for all players to utilize in game.

Originally Posted by CAS_117

...900 words

Well, it may take 900 words to explain myself... But the truth of the matter is, I'm looking forward to hearing a 2 or 3 letter word that will let me know for sure if anything will be done for Jet Aircraft within the upcoming 4-6 months.

I'm sure there's a small number of other pilots lurking about this thread to hear about any good news just as much as I am. Results are the only thing that matters at this point. An elongated debate will not solve the issue by itself.

[gclark03]

Originally Posted by M.Warren

Well, it may take 900 words to explain myself... But the truth of the matter is, I'm looking forward to hearing a 2 or 3 letter word that will let me know for sure if anything will be done for Jet Aircraft within the upcoming 4-6 months.

A 3-letter word: Yes.

Come on, Warren. Be careful when you phrase these posts.

[CAS_117]

The perspective that I am trying to point out is that the J-10 has a tendency to stall from generally unprovoked conditions that are outside the norm and unique problems to this aircraft in particular. One moment you'll be on approach to a controlled landing at a set throttle. The next moment you descend gently with your aircraft from a mere 100 meters and a moment later without reducing your throttle in any way, it simply drops to the ground out of nowhere. No other aircraft I know has such a consistent overtone to fall from the sky on a landing approach.

I haven't experienced this one, but I generally pay more attention to my speed than throttle. Also, how much pitch you are applying may not have been constant. As you pull back on the stick, your lift will increase and cause you to slow down. Also, the J-10 is a screwed up plane on many levels. Just to name a few things out of context that I had to contend with:

• Backwards wings
  
• Backwards flaps
  
• Taking off vertically
  
• Leaping in the air and doing somersaults on takeoff.
  
• EA placing the engine 6m TO THE RIGHT of the aircraft. (Of course no one noticed the J-10 continuously sliding to the left from 0.7 - 0.8 when flying, which you CAN'T overcome by practicing for 15 minutes on local, and has an actual negative effect when flying).
  
  (Straight From BF2 version 1.41)
  ObjectTemplate.addTemplate AIR_J10_Engine
  ObjectTemplate.setPosition 6.3221e-005/0.000165939/-5.60051
  
• A wing that has no lift, no movement, but weighs approximately 5000 kg (J-10 weighs about 11,000 kg)

That's all that I can/all I care to remember. So after going through all of this I can reasonably say, that right now, the J-10 is fine. Seriously.

(Note: In 0.8 guy challenged me to a 1v1 dogfight TWICE, him in the Eurofighter, and me in the J-10. I shot him down 5 times the first time, and 3 times the next. He didn't shoot me once. This was before I increased the J-10s acceleration.)

See I don't take most pilots in PR seriously because they would know the J-10 has 1 huge advantage in a dogfight, and another huge advantage that was left from vanilla that I can't change. Yes you heard me, the J-10 is the BEST in air to air in PR. Case closed.

HINT: The first one ends in "Attack", and the other one has to do with the enemies missiles.

If you know anything about ACM, or have flown against the J-10 in BF2, you'll know at least one of these.

[Snowno]

Angle of Attack and the fact that most missile bounces off it right before they hit them?

What did I win?

[CAS_117]