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Old 03-24-2008, 04:32 AM   #1
M.Warren

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Default One Man Armor (Tanks and APC's)

I'm sure this argument has been going on for ages unbeknownst to me as I don't spend my time toiling on forums. However, it's come to the point where I must state my opinion and I can't say I'm particularly happy. For as long as I have known and played PR (Pre .6), Project Reality has always focused on the aspects of recreating a reality based senario to the greatest extent possible off of the BF2 engine. And unfortunately, it seems one of the most blatent and obvious occurances that contradict this principle still exists to this day... One man armor.

Let's face it. Everyone... Everyone has delt with one man armor before. If it be a tank, or an APC. But in all honesty if these people are on your team they end up as a burden. And if they end up on the other team when you have your properly crewed armor, it's a blessing and one heck of a laugh. But why? Why do we still have this on-going today? Project Reality is supposed to focus on the aspects of teamwork and coordination. And it absolutely drives-me-up-the-walls-insane.

What I don't get is that there has been alot... And I mean alot of work done to PR mod to try and fix this situation and it still exists. People still do it. And in all honesty very, very few times have I seen people go out of their way to properly crew a tank. I myself never, ever, ever leave the main base until I have a gunner and atleast one engineer with me when I utilize armor. And to do anything other than that is a folly.

Then there are people out there (You know who you are.) that will snatch up a perfectly good crewable tank or APC and drive off with it without a word. Not a single drop of effort on your part to ask in team chat if anyone is willing to Drive, Gun and Engineer for you and make a proper squad for it. It's absolutely sickening. I don't mean to be rude but honestly, why then do you play PR? It's just silly and redundant. Here's a method to help.

1. DO NOT One man armor...
2. Make an armor squad. (Tank One, Tank Two or APC One, APC Two etc.)
3. Ask around for volunteers. (Driver, Gunner, Engineer)
4. Driver should be the Squad Leader. (Giving orders and speaking to comm.)
5. Support the infantry squads attacking/defending flags. Running off in your own direction is not recommended.
6. When in doubt, fall back and defend/repair.
7. Honor your Engineer. If he dies, stop what your doing and return to base and pick him up. (RTB)
8. This isn't Hollywood and John Rambo isn't on your team. You can get killed.
9. Do whatever it takes to stay operational and help your team. Strive to live to see another day.
10. DO NOT One man armor...

Aside from all of this, I anticipated more from the developers. Yes, they did implement the 10 second (APC) and 30 second (Tank) turret activation rule. However, that was far from being the fix to stop these one man tankers. My suggestion?

1. Set turret activation to 10 seconds. (APC and Tank)
2. Turret cannot be moved unless a Driver is present in the drivers seat. (No Driver means: No engine, no power, no turret. That's reality, period. <And "manual hydraulic backup systems" aren't an excuse so people can be running amuck with valued assets.>)

This goes double for you people running around on battlearena's insurgency server in one man APC's getting blown to bits because of your -10 team ticket "I got blown up by an RPG and 2 suicide cars cause I was too lazy to find someone to Drive or Gun whoopsy.".

Let's hope something good comes from this discussion.
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Old 03-24-2008, 04:36 AM   #2
Spaz
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I agree on all points, if there is something I can't stand then its 1 man tanks (second after 1 man attack helo )


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Old 03-24-2008, 05:29 AM   #3
Artnez[US]
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I'm with this idea 100%.

I've always supported removing tank functionality completely if a driver & gunner are not present. The most popular response to such a suggestion is "but what if your driver disconnects mid-round". Your suggestion solves this problem. If your driver disconnects, hop in the drivers and seat and drive back to the base, get another driver and move out again. If a tank loses crew members, I'm sure they're going to return to base unless it's extreme circumstances... given the fact that they're driving a multi million dollar piece of machinery.

Oh, wise Devs, if you feel that you shouldn't implement this for one reason or another, then please-please-please increase the turrent activation time to 60 seconds. Here's why:

a) It usually takes well over a minute to leave the main base and get to the front. 60 seconds is not a long time, but is long enough to inconvenience solo tankers even more than ever.

b) Gunners shouldn't be hopping out of tanks anyway. It'll take about 2 minutes to get into the fight (or anywhere near the fight) which is enough time to get the turret activated. After that, the gunner shouldn't be leaving that gunner seat for any reason.
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Old 03-24-2008, 05:42 AM   #4
[R-DEV]Deadfast
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Good idea.
Too many assets wasted due to idiots who take the tank alone to the frontline, swap to gunner, find out there's the delay and watch how an enemy tank decimates them.

Then us, the people who actually use the tanks correctly, die (nobody is immortal) and find out that we gotta wait 15 minutes before a new tanks spawn because some soloer got all the rest blown up.

The gun delay can't prevent this. Yes, it renders them useless, but they still can effectively get the tank blown up to pieces.

Warren's method is a very good idea that could finally stop this ridiculousness.


-Unhappy armor whore .


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Old 03-24-2008, 06:14 AM   #5
Zimmer
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YEah I am all for it, but then hey bf2 isnt the most stabil game that you never get a ctd from it can come when ever you dont want it to happen and sadly if a driver ctds your screwed it just isnt practical with no driver no shooting.
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Old 03-24-2008, 07:58 AM   #6
General_J0k3r
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yeah. 60s delay FTW!
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Old 03-24-2008, 09:20 AM   #7
[uBp]Irish

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i'm glad we've restarted the anti-solo tanker threads again.. i think that was about a month since the last one.


buddy, you're nothing new. this topic is a dead horse, and now you're starting to skin the poor thing. find something else to rant about.

oh, and if you rant about your "omgtanksareoverpowerdbbq" than i would only think it fair, that a transport chopper doesnt take off without a co-pilot, a humvee drive away without atleast a gunner, and an attack helo without it's gunner. cause... that's reality right.
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Old 03-24-2008, 09:30 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [uBp]Irish View Post
i'm glad we've restarted the anti-solo tanker threads again.. i think that was about a month since the last one.


buddy, you're nothing new. this topic is a dead horse, and now you're starting to skin the poor thing. find something else to rant about.

oh, and if you rant about your "omgtanksareoverpowerdbbq" than i would only think it fair, that a transport chopper doesnt take off without a co-pilot, a humvee drive away without atleast a gunner, and an attack helo without it's gunner. cause... that's reality right.
hey atleast hes offering a viable solution to the problem! i wouldnt exactly call it a rant. as for the rest of your reply.. im not even gonna go there.

and honestly how often does your tank gunner CTD? i think it might have happened to me once. its a small price to pay to have to solve the solo tanker problem. i think the ops idea is very good and should be implemented.

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Old 03-24-2008, 10:02 AM   #9
Jester_Prince

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Im all up for the 60 sceonds timer, or the no driver no turret option.

I read another thread at one point about the planes/choppers getting crashed by noobs who dont know how to fly... ie they get the thing destroyed on takeoff. and the suggestion was that the plane/chopper would respawn instantly if destroyed within the first few mins of its flight time. Well perhaps if this was implamented on both armour and aircraft it could save the decent crewmen who play their chosen ride right, alot of troublw.

The other option was for tests to be somehow implemented so people have to know how to operate all PR veichles before they could even install PR.

Anotgher way.... what if there was a bleed effect on tanks without a driver/gunner?

like was said before the crew shouldn't get out anyway.

[uBp]Irish - "i'm glad we've restarted the anti-solo tanker threads again.. i think that was about a month since the last one."

Dude theres nothing wrong with old subjects being revived, people always have new suggestion and ideas, and its just trying to help

Thats is why, people come to this section... to try help, people who shoot other suggestions down are fools, every idea always has some form of reason behind it being suggested. and as far as i know, solo tanks are still an issue which has still not been solved, so people obviously still need to offer suggestions up till it is solved.

I hope your suggestion about transport veichles like humvees/landys was sarcasm, thouse need to be drivable by one person... weve all had to pick up our squad countless times in landys/humvees.

Just as a side note, sarcasm over the internet DOSNT work, unless its blatantly obvious, because no one can see your face or hear your tone of voice so dont do it just makes you seem like a jerk.
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Old 03-24-2008, 11:22 AM   #10
[uBp]Irish

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actually no, i wasnt being sarcastic.

if we're going to play the reality card in this thread, because the OP already did (no driver, no engine.. no turret operation), than i'll play it right back.

no transport pilot would fly with out a co-pilot. Co-pilot might be going to far, but he would definitely not lift off without atleast ONE gunner.

No attack helo pilot would dare think about lifting off without his gunner. That's the most vital asset to that vehicle and any solo-attack pilot is just a floating peice of metal. Let's noob-free that peice of equipment also, because yea.. that's really needed!

And i'm definitely not kidding about the hummer. No soldier in his mind would drive off in a hummer on his own, with some other people back at base needing a ride.

The points might be exaggerated, but so are all the ideas that circulate about how to fix "one-man tanks". The fact is you're not looking across the whole spectrum, but only focusing in on one minute detail which is the fact that someone can take a tank, go sit on a ridge, and provide cover. Oh wait, isnt that what he's supposed to do? God forbid someone does their job and the role of their vehicle.

Back to the hummer thing, i'm really not sure why this has never been addressed. If we cry reality in this mod, like i said earlier, noone would leave base without a gunner in the hummer. Its nice that they added a 3sec delay to the turret, but still, i cant count the times i've seen a guy take a hummer on his own when there are people still at base waiting. I dont see why the same argument that the OP uses against armor wouldnt apply here? Or the Co-Pilot to the Transport Helo? Or the gunner to the Attack Helo?

--------back to armor topic---------

Also, lets think of it in a metaphorical way, which PR has come accustomed to. We can say, that on a lower population server, the solo-tanker taking his tank out, could fulfill the role of a fully crewed tank. Why do i say this? well look at the facts, we already have the "metaphor" that tanks are lazer snipers because IRL the gunner would have computer that would factor in the physics of gunnery. Just like how shock paddles can bring someone back to life is a metaphor for the fact that that guy was probably evaced out and is coming back as reinforcements. Or back in .7 who the knifing of a civilian was a metaphor for actually "capturing" him for information.

If you look closely throughout PR, there are metaphors everywhere to increase the game-play ability of this mod, while at the same time trying to move that little bit closer to reality. The fact that most arguments, like i said earlier, have been directed at armor (probably just because they are the most destructive) is actually quite biased.

How many times have you been the only person on a team that made an armor squad, and then have some scrub join it only to drive your tank repeatedly up a slope they cant traverse? How much time have you just now wasted? I know i am far more lethal when i can position myself on the ridges to the south of the bunkers on Kashan, and have a great over watch position so my people can cap the flags undeterred, rather than spend the time getting there with some noob-driver.

The main arguments i've realized that the hardcore group of Dieselheads have had to argue against is the fact that a solo tank, on his own, can defeat a 2man tank anytime anywhere. PM me, and we'll go test it, but it is not the fact that the tank is so much effective, but the fact that because there are still variables in the equation that hinder the effectiveness of a 2man tank crew.

-----Main Points-------

What does a 2man tank crew bring to the table that a 1man tank crew cant do on it's own? Move and shoot at the same time? Right, because that's perfect. Granted the Devs in .75 have made it more stable, the turret stabilizers on most turrets still arent that great to move/shoot at the same time. This is where 2man tanks come in with the tactic of shoot/skoot, but that split second you stop to shoot at me, you're wasting time trying to align your sights on my hull, while the whole time i was trained right on your side-skirts waiting for you to stop where i then plunge a Sabot into your skirts. One more to go and you're done.

The question like i have stated in EVERY other anti-solo tanker post, is not that we should limit the effectiveness of a solo tank (because really, taking that away can hinder a 16 player game severly if you wanted it too), but figure out what would be a better way of making the 2man tank crews more attractive. Figure out what would make being in a 2man tank crew more attractive than going out on your own?

------Closing-------

And with regards to the fact noobs are taking vehicles and destorying them, is just the pure-reality that they are noobs and are getting accustomed to the game. The idea of issuing a "test" is just appaling since when should someone be forced to take a test to play a game. This is a game and simulator people. If you hate the fact noobs are destorying your game, take a proactive role and educate them. This game is not for everyone, and usually more than anything they get frustrated with it and leave.

I'm a very sarcastic person in real life. When people are so narrow-minded that they look for alternatives without looking at other issues in the spectrum (cars/attack -transport helos) it kinda.. riles me up.

EDIT:

Try playing on the good servers on the net. Thors Brig, TG, iGi, and some others really enforce the use of armor squads, so i rarely come across solo-tankers much anymore. TG for example will kick you if you solo-tank, since they voice the fact it's always wasting assets. If i do end up solo tanking on a server, i usually end up with a 50-70+kill/0-4death ratio (again, sitting there and providing the cover that those grunts on the ground are always looking for). It's a matter of knowing your role. People get angered because i do my job, and provide support to the grunts. I seriously dont see why they dont just flank me with some IED's, and RPGS (which happens quite alot)


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