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Old 12-19-2006, 03:15 PM   #11
Guerra norte
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [PIT]BludShoT
Try playing in a clan match looking at the big map to see where your squad is every 10 seconds. You'll get cut down. There's more ways of playing PR than the pub way you play it. I wouldn't need a minimap on a pub either, pubs are just for a laugh. There's usually so many people on a pub that the minimap is just confusing anyways.
I've played both in VERY organised battles both private and public and it works fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [PIT]BludShoT
The only possible way they could remove the minimap and have things not suck, is if they update the skins MASSIVELY to make all the soldiers look distinct at larger distances.
I can agree on the skin part, soldiers do get harder to ID over greater distances, but that's what the map is for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [PIT]BludShoT
And what about spotting? And spotting snipers. You don't want that in the game anymore? Whatever man
I have no problem with seeing sniper positions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [PIT]BludShoT
I agree to disagree with you hehe.
And that's your right! This is a disscusion forum right
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Old 12-19-2006, 06:34 PM   #12
Downtown_two

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jihad against the minimap anyone?

To the guy above (no longer the guy above, its now the guy above the guy above)....soldiers from professional military factions would tend to wear camo that applies to the envornment, both of them. Use your eye's, learn to tell the differences.I had trouble at first but not anymore, no more than someone might in real life I suppose.


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Old 12-19-2006, 06:40 PM   #13
Guerra norte
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Downtown_two
jihad against the minimap anyone?
Indeed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Downtown_two
To the guy above (no longer the guy above, its now the guy above the guy above)....soldiers from professional military factions would tend to wear camo that applies to the envornment, both of them. Use your eye's, learn to tell the differences.I had trouble at first but not anymore, no more than someone might in real life I suppose.
I didn't have so much problems with identifying friend and foe before, but after 0.4 came out I had to sacrifice much of my graphics settings, and now it appears (correct me if I'm wrong) soldier skins seem more similar when reaching a certain LOD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Downtown_two
no longer the guy above, its now the guy above the guy above)
lol
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Old 12-20-2006, 12:21 AM   #14
OverwatchX
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Personally, I'd love to see the minimap gone too. It is a crutch for weak play and a reality killer to boot. I really fail to see how its presence in this mod is justifiable. It is a gamey contraption at best and a WMD against true cohesive squad-type play at worst. It allows players to have real time assesments on everything that they would otherwise need to rely on teammates to pass along to them via VOIP or things they would have to determine on their own as the battle rages on.

So many proven FPS game in the past (great ones) never had a minimap and gameplay was not hurt one bit. In fact, the opposite (IMHO) occurred. Immersion, fear of the unknown situation ahead, and working as a team took over. FPSs like Rainbox six, Operation Flashpoint, Halo, Call of Duty, Medal of Honor, Brothers in Arms, Doom, Red Orchestra, Ghost Recon, America's Army..the list goes on and on. Yet not one of these games had a real time minimap providing the level of detail present as the one in BF2. To have it in a realism mod, I think, holds this mod back from being something truly unique; a FPS game with incredible graphics and sound and realsitic gameplay apart from any other in the field of play today.

The minimap is, to me, like much like an addictive drug that people feel they need in order to have a good time. There reallly ought to be MA for Minimappers Anonymous...so quasi realism players can get over their addiction. Kicking this to the curb makes the game much better. Red and blue dots? Garmin? Facings? Please.

This minimap has no place in this mod. It should be turned off. Players should have to rely on what they see and hear on the battlefield which, trust me, they arent fully enjoying because of a dependance on a stupid doodad in the upper right corner. What happens to people who go blind? They quickly develop heightened senses in other areas. So would you.

If the devs have made a real constructive argument for keeping the minimap in besides of the "gameplay" cop out....I, respectfully, would like to see it.

Realism and fun aren't mutually exclusive.
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Old 12-20-2006, 12:56 PM   #15
fuzzhead
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Say "YES!" to Mini-map Removal

The Mini-Map", "Spin-Map", "Gay-Dar" - call it what you will, it is by far the biggest arcade feature still left in PRM. Serious Tactical Realism may never be as popular as arcade/action fantasy realism, so why cripple the mod for it's intended audience (Serious Tactical Immersion) with arcade fantasy features that force arcade game-play? I believe that there seems to be no logical reason to keep the Spin-Map in game. PRM is advertising itself as a "realism" mod, and the 'Spin-Map' totally obviates and in some cases even makes a great deal of valuable and fun 'realistic' game-play impossible. There is a perfectly acceptable substitute: at the press of a key you can instantly see a much larger, more realistic, tactical map -- with all the same real-time telemetry that offers both greater detail and scale, and it even has adjustable alpha so they can still see through it. I will explain point by point why I believe there is no logical reason to keep the mini-map, starting with:

First - having much less HUD will drastically IMPROVE your situation awareness. Instead of looking at the crappy 2d shit on your screen, you will absorb all the 3 dimensional input. You will be immersed much more into the 3d world than if there is a bunch of 2D images blocking your view. It's not just the aesthetic warts of having 2D overlays all over the place, it's also fact that 2D overlays break eye brain fusion that creates the illusion of depth in a flat projected game and takes a lot of immersiveness out of the game. Both are a travesty of bad game design on any flavor of FPS realism be it action realism like vanilla BF2 or serious tactical realism. Digressions about situational awareness are frankly, ridiculous. a real soldier does not sit in a comfy chair, sipping Mountain Dew, in air-conditioned comfort, focused on every minute detail, instantly able to shift his view without strain or risk, and he sure as hell does not have magic real-time telemetry out to 2+ Km updating him instantly to what's going on. There is no real-world always-on, real-time, battlefield telemetry that offers a fraction of the information the magical fantasy 'Spin Map' offers.

Second - Communication and navigation will now actually become an essential part of gameplay! This will really cut down the amount of lonewolves and greif players because it will no longer be easy to find targets that OTHER SQUADS are pointing out. Foregoing the magic spin-map in PRM wouldn't even require the level of realistic tactical navigation game skill that games like: Ghost Recon, Operation Flash Point, Hidden & Dangerous, Line of Sight Vietnam, Red Orchestra, VBS1 required.

Third - The magic 'Spin Map' mitigates or out-right completely prevents virtually all realistic squad tactics from even working; you don't need to use proper bounding or RTFA, you just need a quick peek at your spin map and you can Rambo or maneuver through just about anything but a well entrenched line of fire. Reality is not so friendly or so effortless, or so instantly informative. Add to this the 'fog of battle' and it's easy to see why real military tactics are an exploration in tactical caution -- rather then BF2 (and PRM to an extent) which are merely an exercise in relentless aggression eg. Ramboing. If this were intended to be yet another insipid Counter-Strike inspired action arcade realism paint job mod that had little concern for game-play realism, it would be fine. But ; from tactics and stealth, how fire fights are executed, to actual game pace itself, the spin map affects us all. As things are right now, PRM is just as hyper-active and spammy as vanilla BF2 and not even close to the level of realism of many older, simpler, but more objectively based realistic games.

Four - The supporters of the 'Spin Map' often use the word "Feel" when arguing for keeping it. That they would 'feel' the situation better in reality than you can from a monitor. Of course that is true. But even if you are arguing about situational fire, regardless of who's under fire; the player under fire will invariably do a lot better by looking for cover, using terrain, returning fire, and/or maneuvering for cover fire - NOT trying to exploit magical arcade advantage via Gay-Dar. This gives players false sense of security, and makes them rely on an artificial advantage.

Many responses to removing mini-map has been met by critics claiming: "PR is also not meant to be a simulator or a game for only hardcore players, its supposed to be a balance of gameplay and realism."
No one is arguing to make this game a simulator. Most players I imagine would just like to see realism parity with older realism games. Again just to name a few titles to show where a lot of tactical realism fans take the temperature of realism game play, explore:

· Rogue Spear
· Ghost Recon
· Operation Flashpoint Series
· Red Orchestra
· Elite Warriors Vietnam
· Deadly Dozen Pacific Theater
· Sum Of All Fears
· Close Combat
· True Combat
· Hidden & Dangerous Series
· Vietcong Series

None of these games offer a 'Spin-Map'... And as mentioned previously two enormously (arguably most) popular realism titles: Call Of Duty and Medal Of Honor that are much more openly of the arcade realism persuasion (then PRM sells itself as being); do not have a 'Spin-Map'. More people play these two franchise titles then all other realism titles save CS combined; which should I would think speak volumes for game-play without a 'Spin-Map'.

Another comment that seems to pop up a lot is something along the lines of "Organized play won't notice much of a difference, but public play will become a mess." Well I have some news: public play is already a mess. The ones that play on public servers and are tactical leaders, changing the tides of the battles and creating a realistic environment don't feel the need for a 'Spin-Map'. Ask around, ask your favorite squad leaders. Do they want something that promotes rushing, mindless attacking and all the other 'tactics' you see in a typical bf2 round? The attraction of a realism mod is that it requires you to think hard, in lots of different ways and map reading and route planning is just another part of it. Loosing the 'Spin-Map' does have short term disadvantages BUT the long term advantages are great - PR will become about taking your time. Never rush to the objective, think, plan, execute with precision, speed, efficiency. Getting people not to rush will force them to stop and think, rather than make mindless decisions. This opens a whole new world of tactical possibilities, where you wont know where the enemy comes from next, instead of the now tiring stalemates of 2 forces rushing head on at each other until the map ends. You see, the 'Spin-Map' makes players think they know most of whats going, when in reality, they only have a tiny, fragmented, out of context view.

Often the point of 'new players wont like it' comes up. People seem to think it will become harder for new players to start playing without a 'Spin-Map'. Just the opposite is in fact the case. Currently, new players are instantly killed due to the high FHD (First Hit Decisiveness) weapons of PRM. The more skilled players have the ability to exploit the 'Spin-Map', find a loitering 'Noob' and dispatch him before he's even sorted his situation out. Even at the 'Noob' level removing the 'Spin-Map' will have a positive effect as other more skilled players won't instantly/magically know where he is and take him out instantly.

Some people have often thought "I am always going to get shot while looking at my map." If you are alone standing up in the middle of a field, then yea, you probably will get shot. This is part and parcle of a realism game - getting your map out in a safe and secure area, and planning a route. Thats what makes the difference between a completly mindless and small arcade game on a map the size of your garden and PR's huge maps, with lots of room to flank and use squad tactics. You should always be moving from cover to cover sticking with your squad and fire team partner. This will promote players looking for a safe place to open their map.

PRM may have the best intentions of attracting the widest audience possible by keeping this arcade feature, but I believe all that it's accomplishing is making a game that's watered down that cannot really appeal strongly to anyone. A great many serious tactical realism fans won't even bother with PRM because all it really has as far as many can see is the realistic damage levels. PRM can still play just like a spawn-speed-spam, arcade Counter-Strike-play-alike (with vehicles) more then a serious tactical realism. Those players that currently use the tactical map in PRM will be the ones who plan and think carefully - those are the people that PR wants.

Example of thoughts from a VBF2 Player: "The 'Spin-Map' replaces the commanders and radio operators." Nope. It's a real-time-shoot-first-think-later radar. It DOE NOT encourage communication or cohesion, it encourages lone wolfing and carelessness.


From a PR Players Perspective:

I've been playing without the 'Mini-Map' for a few days now and guess what i've discovered? It actually INCREASES your situational awareness because the 'Spin-Map' distracts you from scanning your Field Of View, so if you want to know where friendly and enemy inf. is located, its just the push of the Caps Lock key.

If the mini map is removed I believe players will have to rely on more than just the FPS "kill the threat as soon as you can see it" mentality. There is a strong dependence on this 'Mini-Map' being the integral part of the BF/PR experience from the beginning. One of the best aspects of the PRM 0.4 has been the player tag limiting; I've got the sweats so many times because I've not been completely certain whether a person is friend or foe, particularly if they've been in a vehicle. This presented a new challenge and forced me to think more before reacting, an experience that added more depth to the gameplay. The uncertainly over what is and isn't a threat adds a new dynamic. It reminded me of a documentary I saw on friendly fire in the 2nd Gulf War. The camera crew followed British and American troops patrolling a marshland. There were a number of times where it was uncertain whether gunfire came from the enemy or from friendlies (as it happens it was most of the time, friendlies). This is a very real aspect of modern infantry combat and one that I think would add to the gameplay. I know it would take a fair amount of time for people to get used to these changes, but ultimately with a little patience and adjustment I believe the experience would have more depth and reward to it.

Using the minimap I feel results in an arcade rambo, spam, death-match play, where the first to see the other player is the first to kill regardless of any real tactics or marksmanship skill. Realistic squad maneuver and fire tactics are virtually out of the question.

So now that Ive gone over those points, Id like to introduce a couple simple changes that would help the transition into a new PR, away from the downfalls of the 'Spin-Map'.

Recommended changes for the future:

- 'Mini-Map' is removed.

- 'M' (Tactical) Map keeps all the same information the minimap had, and remains in its current form.

- Keep the 'flag neutralizing' bar somewhere close to the ticket counter.

- Add a small spinning compass near the bottom of the screen that can be toggled on or off with the ALT key. This compass can be made to look like a real life compass OR it can just be a HUD element simular to the one located in choppers that are currently in game.


One final word quoted from myself: "I don't know if the PR player-base is quite ready to ditch the 'Spin-Map', but I would hope that in the future there would be enough support for its removal, for a better PRM."

I truly believe that with the 'Mini-Map' removed, that PRM will become closer to what we all would love to play, an immersive, tactical shooter that is as close to real life combat as we can get, yet still maintains a fun, coherent experience filled with teamwork and friends.

Thanks for reading, I may put some more time into this but it sums up all the arguments I think.
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Last edited by fuzzhead; 12-21-2006 at 04:07 AM..
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Old 12-20-2006, 01:07 PM   #16
Guerra norte
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THANKS FOR THE SUPPORT GUYS! I'm a happy soldier now
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Old 12-20-2006, 01:29 PM   #17
MasterTom
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wow... what a post fuzz... ill get back later to read it all... but personally... I dont use the map in pubs at all... so i couldnt care less about it being removed... but since Egg's making the shots... It's staying (for atleast the next release)... so get over it.
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Old 12-20-2006, 01:48 PM   #18
myurko
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fuzzhead, I completely agree with on those points. I would play without it except youun't request kits or use the commo rose if you are 100% transparent. I am honetly supriat eggman is pushing this hard to keep the mini-map, since the polls have shownpeople don't wantt.
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Old 12-20-2006, 01:56 PM   #19
Guerra norte
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myurko
I would play without it except youun't request kits or use the commo rose if you are 100% transparent.
Minimap transparancy doesn't affect the commo/request roses, however the icon transparancy affects CP names on the Caps Lock map.
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Old 12-20-2006, 09:08 PM   #20
OverwatchX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-CON]fuzzhead
Say "YES!" to Mini-map Removal

The Mini-Map", "Spin-Map", "Gay-Dar" - call it what you will, it is by far the biggest arcade feature still left in PRM. ...Thanks for reading, I may put some more time into this but it sums up all the arguments I think
Excellent post fuzzhead! Truly. I dont think I've seen a better post on this subject and I thank you for it. I don't know if it will change anyone's mind but it should. The logic, IMHO, is solid and your argument is sound. Well done.

As far as the "Get over it comment", I dont know what that is supposed to mean. We are asking for realism from a realism mod yet we continue to play the mod as is and are dedicated players and forum posters. So, while I will play the mod as is, I will always hope for a change or changes that are headed towards realism and immersion within the limits of the engine and the modders skill set.

Realism and fun aren't mutually exclusive.
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