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Old 01-14-2012, 12:27 PM   #71
Murphy

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Default Re: Insurgency Breakdown and Alteration

Well kilgore the issue at hand is the fact that no one enjoys watching an INS round end without any real attacks on a cache, instead what we have is a handful of attacks on a known area but when repelled the blufor moves onto hunting unknowns to conserve tickets.

I personally don't mind how things are now, if you get your unknowns ganked all round you might have considered defending them after 1/2 got taken down. Alas the vast majority of players feel this game mode is broken due to the fact that rounds can technically end without any shots being fired, as long as insurgents play the game the way it was meant to be played. Affording bluforces an even easier time then they theoretically already have (huge advantage when it comes to equipment and the team is given the freedom to dictate when/where the action goes down, even if they don't want to attack the known) by allowing them to end the round basically walking around enjoying the scenery is not fun for anyone.

There are servers that will kick players for spawning and defending unknowns sighting it as "giving away the unknown", but the reality is if no one spawns there a ninja squad can stroll in unopposed. The shortest and simplest solution would be to remove unknowns until they become know, this forces blufor to pursue the designated objective until there is a 2nd option.

The intel gathered when assaulting the first known will eventually ensure that if this cache is terribly easy to defend (thinking Lashkar cave complexes) bluforces will keep attacking until they have the 2nd cache location. The insurgents have been given ample time to reduce enemy tickets, and if they play is smart the 2nd cache may never spawn. Civilian kits would actually become valued as they can keep the 2nd cache from ever spawning, where as now no one cares because it's just as easy to find where the insurgents are massing (giving away unknown).


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Old 01-14-2012, 10:30 PM   #72
doop-de-doo
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Default Re: Insurgency Breakdown and Alteration

As unknowns become available to BLUFOR after a waiting period of 5 minutes, perhaps the unknown cache should only spawn at the beginning of the 5 minute period?

Purple shield = 5 minutes until BLUFOR are aware of its location

Blue diamond = Known cache.

Nothing else needs to change. How many servers promote active defense of unknowns?


PS: Do insurgents frequently relocate weapon caches IRL? Just out of curiosity.


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Old 03-07-2012, 01:53 AM   #73
illidur
Default Re: Insurgency Breakdown and Alteration

here are the changes i would make to insurgency. their importance decreases while difficulty to implement increases in order.

1. i have come to the conclusion that one cache is the only way. make it so that the only cache is harder to get intel for making intel more important. and when they do, the marker isn't directly on it. searching for caches and making fake caches is fun.

2. in the case where there is a cache that is impossible to get, thats the map's flaw and those spawns could be removed entirely.

3. i'd make the "cache can't spawn xx distance" thing as small a distance as possible, and not permanent (like right now) if possible (it could spawn there again but not right after).

4. which leads me to another thing that would need a change if possible, the only unknown's first (?) minutes should be invulnerable of being overrun (not mandatory but could cover a couple bad scenarios). so no matter what it has a chance. so it can be defended if it spawns next to an enemy fob and isn't concealed. the blufor would still be gaining an advantage by building random fobs, because it would be known right away, but they probably wouldn't get a easy cache kill if they were there.


i dont see any problems with my suggested method and it also keeps in line with the original insurgency idea. an unknown could still be sought after, but will surely be defended at least. though im sure this would be alot of work. but it is just as played as aas. meaning its a big deal.
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:49 AM   #74
SGT.Ice

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Default Re: Insurgency Breakdown and Alteration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Web_cole View Post
(There are a bunch of threads similar to this about the Insurgency gamemode, I believe this one is different enough but I guess that's up to the Mods to decide.)

Wall of text incoming

One of the key innovations of PR has always been using game mechanics to influence player behaviour and to solve perceived "problems" with player psychology. In some cases it is used as a hard barrier, for instance you literally cannot crew a tank with any effectiveness unless you have 2 people working together. In other cases it is used as more of an encouragement, e.g. the rally point mechanic where players would be advised to stick close to their SLs if they want to get back in the fight quickly (more so in previous versions of PR).

I would say that the Insurgency game mode as it stands has large over arching issues with how players act and think, and Insurgency maps often play out very messily. There is an overall lack of focus; it seems fairly obvious that the game is supposed to play out with the Insurgent team largely defending the known cache, and the Blufor team largely attacking it. Obviously there can be some scope for disruption tactics for Ins, and perhaps some smaller units spotting and actively searching for unknown caches on Blufor, but on paper it seems reasonable to say that 80% of the players on the server should be focused on the known cache.

However, this is definitely not how a substantial number of Insurgency games play out. As it is a large number of Insurgent players will often ignore the known cache in favour of other things. Things like spawning on unknown caches, either because they think it needs defending or because they think it is closer to the action. Things like the afore-mentioned disruption tactics, mining choke points and well traveled Blufor routes, setting up ambushes etc. Things like actively hunting down and engaging Blufor squads even though they are no where near the known cache. This frequently leads to situations where more than half of the Ins team is hundreds of meters away from the main objective and hoping that someone else will defend it, and then wonder to themselves how the caches keep going down so easily.



An average and fairly scattered defence.


Why is this? I would argue it is because the Insurgent game mode in its present form is too unfocused. It may be unpopular of me to say this, but defending known caches is boring. Necessary if you want to win, but also boring. An Insurgent player sitting on or near a cache could be waiting 10/20 minutes or more between engagements. And why is that? The known cache is the main objective, why are Blufor not attacking it almost constantly? Well, a lot of the time they simply don't have too. To use the most extreme example, the US on Karbala can and frequently do win by hunting unknown caches almost exclusively. There is a saying in this community; "Players are hardcoded", which for me means players are largely interested in their own satisfaction and players, like water, will usually take the path of least resistance. Why would I attack the known cache when I have the option of hunting for the unknown and could easily get a free kill on it if I find it? And if no Blufor are attacking the known why would I sit here for 20 minutes bored out of my mind, when I could go find them and kill them and get that enjoyment I am here to have?

For me this is a breakdown of the fundamental problem with the Ins gamemode, the root of which is that the principal gameplay conceit does not function as it should. That is; players do not feel they have to/do not want to attack/defend the known cache.

I feel like situations like the one below:


A handful of people defending the known cache.


Could be avoided by a major revamping of the Insurgency game mechanics. So here comes the actual suggestion part

Remove Unknown Caches

Remove the second cache altogether. One cache to defend and one cache to attack. Suddenly all those Blufor squads that were out hunting unknowns have no real choice but to attack the known, and those Ins players who were out hunting Blufor miles from the cache want to defend again, because that's where the action is.

Similar to now, every time a new cache spawns it has 5 minutes before becoming known to Blufor, allowing the Ins to prepare.

Intel System Tweak

Now that there are no unknown caches to gain intel on, what could the Intel Points system be used for, if anything? One possibility; the cache marker could start out with something like a 200m/150m/100m radius for Blufor. As they gain intel that radius decreases in 25m/50m jumps.

Cache Timer

I think I saw Rudd say something along these lines once; make it so that caches will disappear after 30/45 minutes. This would count as the Insurgents having successfully defended and "moved" the cache. This would largely be to allow the Blufor to still win if the Ins get an easily defended cache location.

As above the new cache location would become known after 5 minutes, to give the Ins time to set up Hideouts etc. Blufor would still have to destroy X amount of caches (however many makes sense with this system, possibly a lot less than with the current one.)


In closing, obviously the Devs are awesome for giving so much of their free time to us for PR and this is not a slur against them, but I honestly do think that the Insurgency game mode in its current state is borderline broken. I do not believe it works as intended, and if not the ones listed above, I think it definitely needs some kind of drastic alteration.
Other than removing the 2nd cache the 2nd/3rd idea are quite note worthy and would improve insurgency.

Insurgency v2.
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Old 03-07-2012, 02:57 AM   #75
pr|Zer0

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Default Re: Insurgency Breakdown and Alteration

1. That will lead to all caches becoming nigh impossible. When u have IED, artie IED, mines, pipe bombs, nade traps lots of RPG's, BLUEFOR is becoming seriously inferior. Imagine 1 cache inside the city in fallujah or on Korengal

2. Theres no impossible cache, therefore the importance of the 2nd known becomes obvious...to divert the defender's strenght
3. I didnt completely understood that
4. An "invulnerable" cache doesn't mean it cannot be camped by a tank or something thus rendering building defenses useless

Cache timer and decrease radius with IP are very good ideas..now that makes me curious


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Old 03-07-2012, 03:51 AM   #76
spiked_rye
Default Re: Insurgency Breakdown and Alteration

Removal of the second cache would remove alot of the tactical element from both sides. BLUFOR would have one objective to focus all of thier powerful assets on, and no reason to go anywhere else. INS would have no real reason to be anywhere else on the map as there is no unknown to defend, and no reason for BLUFOR to go off mission to attack INS away from the cache, and thus it's harder to lure BLUFOR into a trap.

It'd rappidly devolve into a stalemate, with 32 ins players in a cluster of buildings, and BLUFOR making massed charges and either winning, or getting wiped out, loosing all thier assets, and sitting around main for 20 min waiting for the assets to spawn.
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Old 03-07-2012, 08:54 AM   #77
Arnoldio
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Default Re: Insurgency Breakdown and Alteration

Simple fix(es).

1. There is only one cache on the map at a time, with the current mechanics.

2. There is 2 caches at a time, but the unknown doesnt phisically spawn UNTIL its known, its just a spawnpoint for the INS to get prepared.

Now, the final, and i think most innovative option.

3. Two caches spawn, together in a 50-200 m radius, with only one marker in the vicinity. Using the same mechanic, that they spawn even if not known. Now BLUFOR doesnt have a single point to attack, its spreads over the area, but its still not so stretched as now, as a bonus point, you CAN hund unknown, but its is going to be swarming with insurgents anyway. 2 flies in one swat. But it might happen that BLUFOR once taking out one cache, would quickly seize the other one, so maybe increasing the cache count required should be raised, or maybe not. So, cache bundles, but larger area, feels more like a combat zone.
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Old 03-07-2012, 03:50 PM   #78
illidur
Default Re: Insurgency Breakdown and Alteration

Quote:
Originally Posted by pr|Zer0 View Post
1. That will lead to all caches becoming nigh impossible. When u have IED, artie IED, mines, pipe bombs, nade traps lots of RPG's, BLUEFOR is becoming seriously inferior. Imagine 1 cache inside the city in fallujah or on Korengal

2. Theres no impossible cache, therefore the importance of the 2nd known becomes obvious...to divert the defender's strenght


there are a few caches on some maps that are VERY hard to take even with half the enemy defending it. but those are maps that are imo broken in comparison to others.

3. I didnt completely understand that

its a current cache spawning mechanic making it easy for me and others to find unknowns

4. An "invulnerable" cache doesn't mean it cannot be camped by a tank or something thus rendering building defenses useless

it would still be killable, just the spawnpoint couldn't be overrun for a set time.

Cache timer and decrease radius with IP are very good ideas..now that makes me curious
my reply in bold.

there are ways with more than 1 cache but might not work...

like if there was going to be 2 caches, perhaps the 2nd should pop up with enough intel and never becomes known unless the known goes down. so the blufor won't actually know if the next cache is actually on the map or not. then with further intel it does become known and repeat the process. if the known goes down before an unknown spawns, spawn an unknown and reset the intel.

i think intel needs to be more important in either case, which leads to the civi being more important. atm civis are killed without fear because currently the caches are there no matter what and that is the only objective.
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Old 03-08-2012, 10:13 AM   #79
sweedensniiperr
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Default Re: Insurgency Breakdown and Alteration

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnoldio View Post
2. There is 2 caches at a time, but the unknown doesnt phisically spawn UNTIL its known, its just a spawnpoint for the INS to get prepared.
Or maybe you can only spawn on the "unknown" when it's been compromised but hasn't showed up for the blufor yet.


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Old 03-08-2012, 05:12 PM   #80
Web_cole
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Default Re: Insurgency Breakdown and Alteration

Quote:
Originally Posted by spiked_rye View Post
Removal of the second cache would remove alot of the tactical element from both sides. BLUFOR would have one objective to focus all of thier powerful assets on, and no reason to go anywhere else. INS would have no real reason to be anywhere else on the map as there is no unknown to defend, and no reason for BLUFOR to go off mission to attack INS away from the cache, and thus it's harder to lure BLUFOR into a trap. .
It seems where you see complexity I see utter chaos. Yes, the current system can allow for Ins ambushes etc (no more or less than any of the changes proposed in this thread would allow for however) and yes "fake caches" would be more difficult under some of these proposed changes (but would still be possible to achieve). The difference would be we would have a game mode where the main objective actually matters, and where the Ins team are rewarded for playing the game like its PR, and not CoD on a x500 scale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnoldio View Post
Simple fix(es).

1. There is only one cache on the map at a time, with the current mechanics.

2. There is 2 caches at a time, but the unknown doesnt phisically spawn UNTIL its known, its just a spawnpoint for the INS to get prepared.

Now, the final, and i think most innovative option.

^ A good summation of most of whats gone before in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnoldio View Post
3. Two caches spawn, together in a 50-200 m radius, with only one marker in the vicinity. Using the same mechanic, that they spawn even if not known. Now BLUFOR doesnt have a single point to attack, its spreads over the area, but its still not so stretched as now, as a bonus point, you CAN hund unknown, but its is going to be swarming with insurgents anyway. 2 flies in one swat. But it might happen that BLUFOR once taking out one cache, would quickly seize the other one, so maybe increasing the cache count required should be raised, or maybe not. So, cache bundles, but larger area, feels more like a combat zone.
And an interesting alternative.


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