America: The World's Designated Driver

[Figisaacnewton]

IRT Smooth Operator:
Well I do submit my apologies for not seing the per capita on that graph. That was my dumbass mistake.

Still, my views on Noam Chomsky are the same. Libertarian Socialist is an oxymoron. I don't care if he bases his views on unclassified documents. Just because he is an MIT linguistics professor with a very potent writing cabapility doesn't make me think his political or economic views are right. If I want a lecture about economy, I'll take it from an economist, thank you.

Also, perhaps a comparison of GNP to per capita waste/pollution would yeild some interesting information.

Anyways... let me take a look at those graph's again. Let's compare the wasetfulness of the actual populations, not including the waste of thier governments, per capita. I'll rank the first 10 or so from most wasteful to least wasteful.

1 ) Denmark
2 ) Netherlands
2 ) Luxembourg
4 ) UK
5 ) Spain
6 ) USA
6 ) Switzerland
8 ) Germany

So... that shows the actual people's wastefulness. When you throw in the government as well, you get the graph we already saw. So... I'm just as much against government wastefulness as the next guy. I think the government needs a large reduction in size and beuacracy. I'm all for reducint that category of 'other municipal waste'.

I don't think the American people themselves are that much more wasteful than other societies though. Also, waste is a byproduct of plenty. The more we have, the more we use, the more we need it replaced. I don't think municipal waste directly harms the planet in any way, but I'd need to know what this graph considers as 'municipal waste'.

And greenhouse gases... well, those numbers don't tell much, as they don't explain what the cause of all of those emmisions are. I don't think trans Australian transport is a very reasonable explanation for them having more emmisions than we do... but I am not 100% sure (meaning I have no source) that would prove or disprove that. Anyways, why would it be ok for Australia? If their inter continent transport is causing all the pollution, why don't they minimize it or optimize it or something? Or is it ok for the US to have a polluting transport system that adquetly meets the needs/wants of its purchasers too?

To close those comments, I'd like to note that it is virtous to try to keep calm and not lose you're nerve, even when dealing with someone you completely disagree with. I don't say this out of piety, I say it out of experience; you can have a much more mature and interesting argument if you leave bashing/flaming your openent out. I apologize for the rather off topic comment about Germany being a province of the USSR, and hope we can keep this civil.

IRT Pence:
Pence, the British media is (in general) far left, and criticizes every thing Bush does other than his occasional liberal decisions. I don't appriciate the sexual pun, but of course Americans are happy when a foreign country's press supports them. Especially the press of probably our greatest ally the last 75 years.

Also, you have no way to conclude that the author of the article is lying... you have no idea at all what his life is like... You are simply applying your own life to his. You guys don't live the same life, so you don't have the same experiences. Also... its the internet, the largest jumble of ideas and thoughts mankind has ever come up with. If somebody at one point thought it, chances are, its on the internet somehwere.


Damn that took a while to type.

[Pence]

Originally Posted by Figisaacnewton

IRT Pence:
Pence, the British media is (in general) far left, and criticizes every thing Bush does other than his occasional liberal decisions. I don't appriciate the sexual pun, but of course Americans are happy when a foreign country's press supports them. Especially the press of probably our greatest ally the last 75 years.

I have lived here since 1998 on and off and i get the feeling British people in general dont care, i love Bush and it looks like everyone in America hates him.

BBCworld24 is normaly what i watch for the news and i dont think i have or ever will see any anti-Bush behaviour off of them, it seems more Americans dislike Bush (But of corse they have no reason to hate him).

[Deuce6]

I don't trust any media source. I take it all with a grain of salt, because people tend to miss important info, forget important facts, or just lie to get the story on the front page of the paper to boost their career. I don't buy that shit.

I honestly think that we should just live for ourselves. Forget everyone else, and see how they do when they try to fend for themselves. The united states is the world's last superpower, and it's our responsibility to make sure everyone else has the same rights and freedoms as we do. Who is to say that someone can't live the life they want? Why should we deny it to them? But it seems like everyone else is just like "who the hell cares".

Damned if we do, damned if we don't. That's the way I see it. Too bad no one has the balls to stand up for what they believe in nowadays.

[trogdor1289]

Exactly Duece either way someone is going to hate you so just do what you think is best and hope for the best.

[Top_Cat_AxJnAt]

hate is never agood thing. Personaly it might be good if you where sent to rehabilitation if you hated person or person's.
You can hate what the person does, e.g. murder but hating the person never solves the problem.

Insurgents hate the Americans, but if they stopped hating them and hated the actual occupation, they would realise that if they all joined the police, and stopped fighting completelty, the US would just go on patrols and do nothing, and before you know it, they would be packing there bags and be off home.

hating people just begets violence, when you hate what the action. you can almsot never use violence to solve it.

p.s it is best not blame countries for problems such as pollution, if you yuor self go on 10 planes flights a year. Just thought it might be nice to point that simple fact out to all, although i am sure most of you realised that.

[5m0oth_0p3r4t0r]

Originally Posted by Figisaacnewton

Damn that took a while to type.

Yeah, and I appreciate it..

Originally Posted by Figisaacnewton

Well I do submit my apologies for not seing the per capita on that graph. That was my dumbass mistake.

It’s ok.. we all make mistakes.. but I could only see it as such a huge blunder as to “poke fun” /”flame” at it..

Originally Posted by Figisaacnewton

Still, my views on Noam Chomsky are the same. Libertarian Socialist is an oxymoron.

Oxymoron is your take on it.. you have no idea as to how Mr. Chomsky chooses to “weight” the words.. he could simply mean “ A state guided by socialist ideas, with as little bureaucratic influence as possible..???

Originally Posted by Figisaacnewton

I don't care if he bases his views on unclassified documents. Just because he is an MIT linguistics professor with a very potent writing cabapility doesn't make me think his political or economic views are right. If I want a lecture about economy, I'll take it from an economist, thank you.

Well, it’s not so much his views/opinions as his whole argument.. Mr. Chomsky does not so much tell you what to believe, as present you with some telling facts to make up your own mind.. given this can always be slanted, his quoting of DE-classified documents is vital to what we can make of it..
It must be said, most of his critics use YOUR way of labelling him untrustworthy due to left-wing bias.. NOBODY addresses the facts he is presenting.. that is VERY telling as in respect to the truth of his arguments..

Originally Posted by Figisaacnewton

Also, perhaps a comparison of GNP to per capita waste/pollution would yeild some interesting information.

Yes, of course wealthier countries are capable of producing more waste.. the “funny” part is, they could also use their relative wealth to decrease their impact on the environment.. when not doing so, it’s just a testament to how little we (yes, I include Sweden in this) care about the environment and our future..

Originally Posted by Figisaacnewton

Anyways... let me take a look at those graph's again. Let's compare the wasetfulness of the actual populations, not including the waste of thier governments, per capita. I'll rank the first 10 or so from most wasteful to least wasteful.

1 ) Denmark
2 ) Netherlands
2 ) Luxembourg
4 ) UK
5 ) Spain
6 ) USA
6 ) Switzerland
8 ) Germany

So... that shows the actual people's wastefulness. When you throw in the government as well, you get the graph we already saw. So... I'm just as much against government wastefulness as the next guy. I think the government needs a large reduction in size and beuacracy. I'm all for reducint that category of 'other municipal waste'.

I don't think the American people themselves are that much more wasteful than other societies though. Also, waste is a byproduct of plenty. The more we have, the more we use, the more we need it replaced. I don't think municipal waste directly harms the planet in any way, but I'd need to know what this graph considers as 'municipal waste'.

Ok, wastefulness of “actual populations”..?? I don’t know where you get those figures, but stating “government wastefulness” is separate is just plain nonsense..
First, the “government” is not producing the rest of the waste, companies are.. (this is assuming you actually found figures of “household vs TOTAL waste..)
Second, the “total waste” HAS to be compared with to “total population”, it’s contributing to the “total wealth” of the country..

Originally Posted by Figisaacnewton

And greenhouse gases... well, those numbers don't tell much, as they don't explain what the cause of all of those emmisions are. I don't think trans Australian transport is a very reasonable explanation for them having more emmisions than we do... but I am not 100% sure (meaning I have no source) that would prove or disprove that. Anyways, why would it be ok for Australia? If their inter continent transport is causing all the pollution, why don't they minimize it or optimize it or something? Or is it ok for the US to have a polluting transport system that adquetly meets the needs/wants of its purchasers too?

I was by no means saying that Australians are not responsible for pollution, or have any less obligation to reduce it.. I was just underlining the fact that they DO have a huge continent to cover.. and that that, in itself, would ad to their CO2 levels..
This can not be used as an excuse for ANY country..
but, whatever the “explanation”, the greenhouse gases are in no uncertain terms contributing to the economic wealth of the industrialized world. And as such, they can very well be measured per capita, without further explanation.
we are ALL using MORE than our FAIR CHAIR of fossilized fuel..

Originally Posted by Figisaacnewton

To close those comments, I'd like to note that it is virtous to try to keep calm and not lose you're nerve, even when dealing with someone you completely disagree with. I don't say this out of piety, I say it out of experience; you can have a much more mature and interesting argument if you leave bashing/flaming your openent out. I apologize for the rather off topic comment about Germany being a province of the USSR, and hope we can keep this civil.

ok, even as a Swede I have to say we have relied heavily on the US to stand against the former C.C.C.P./USSR.
But there are parts of the history suggesting that EVEN in this, there could have been different outcomes.. (ask me for citations, if you don’t know what I mean..)

[Dark Ewok]

I was by no means saying that Australians are not responsible for pollution, or have any less obligation to reduce it.. I was just underlining the fact that they DO have a huge continent to cover.. and that that, in itself, would ad to their CO2 levels..
This can not be used as an excuse for ANY country..
but, whatever the “explanation”, the greenhouse gases are in no uncertain terms contributing to the economic wealth of the industrialized world. And as such, they can very well be measured per capita, without further explanation.

Umm, care to explain how the greenhouse gases can be contributing to the wealth of the industrialized world?

I would say that the greenhouse gases, at last the ones produced by man, are a result of the expansion or economic growth of the industrialized countries, NOT contributing, per se, to the economy.

Not arguing against what you're saying just trying to clear that up... If it got any clearer.....
I need my bed now

[5m0oth_0p3r4t0r]

Originally Posted by Dark Ewok

Umm, care to explain how the greenhouse gases can be contributing to the wealth of the industrialized world?

I would say that the greenhouse gases, at last the ones produced by man, are a result of the expansion or economic growth of the industrialized countries, NOT contributing, per se, to the economy.

Not arguing against what you're saying just trying to clear that up... If it got any clearer.....
I need my bed now

Oh lol..
although I see your point, my phrasing is phukced up.. I am fairly certain you could read into it what I was trying to say.. and so I’m not going to explain..

[Figisaacnewton]

Regarding Chomsky:

Originally Posted by 5m0oth_0p3r4t0r

It must be said, most of his critics use YOUR way of labelling him untrustworthy due to left-wing bias.. NOBODY addresses the facts he is presenting.. that is VERY telling as in respect to the truth of his arguments..

He presents his facts in akward manners. Everything is built off of assumptions which when all piled togther look incriminating, but when seperated and analyzed, only some look real bad, and others look innocent. He's a master at linguistics, so its obvious that he's a very convincing writer. I simply disagree with his conclusions on various facts. But by the end of any of his commetns or papers, he makes judgements based on 'conclusions' i don't think are correct.

Originally Posted by 5m0oth_0p3r4t0r

Yes, of course wealthier countries are capable of producing more waste.. the “funny” part is, they could also use their relative wealth to decrease their impact on the environment.. when not doing so, it’s just a testament to how little we (yes, I include Sweden in this) care about the environment and our future..

No, if you take money out of the economic process and pump it into making everything low emmision, then you lower the economy by restricting it. Its not like the more money you spend on 'the environment' the less pollution you get. It's more like 'the less production that involves pollution there is' the less polution there is. I'm all for optimizing, streamlining, and making existing processes as safe for the environment as possible, but I'm not for reducing overall production in order to meet an environmental quota, set by a scientist of a science that isn't proven*. If you reduce production, then you reduce wealth... so really the only way to be more 'environmental' is to reduce production and wealth. Thats why the US didn't sign the Kyoto Accords, its just a bunch of limits on our production mainly, and most of them are comparatively unfair when you look at the mandates put on other producing nations.

*(the whole global warming thing is a lot more hyped up and supersized by the world's medias, made to look like its an absolute fact, when actually everythign every scientist says is followed by 'its likely that' or 'its possible that')

Originally Posted by 5m0oth_0p3r4t0r

Ok, wastefulness of “actual populations”..?? I don’t know where you get those figures, but stating “government wastefulness” is separate is just plain nonsense..
First, the “government” is not producing the rest of the waste, companies are.. (this is assuming you actually found figures of “household vs TOTAL waste..)
Second, the “total waste” HAS to be compared with to “total population”, it’s contributing to the “total wealth” of the country..

You said Americans are wasteful.
As in, average Americans, living thier lives. The graph you originally quoted/displayed had a municipal waste per capita measurement.
This graph was broken down into household waste, and other municipal waste. Household waste would be waste per capita generated by people living, consuming goods, and generating waste, in thier own personal American lives. Other municipal waste would be waste from government processes. The order I created showed the most wasteful people. I'm making a distinction between the people who inhabit and live in a country, and the government that maintains it, each put out thier own amount of waste.
The graph you cited shows that the actual American people are not the most wasteful nation, only the American people + the American government generate the most waste altogether.
No offense, but I would guess english isn't you're first language, so you might be having trouble understanding this. If you don't, I can try to explain it again.

Keep up the lively debate.

[Dark Ewok]

Speaking of Global Warming... Here's a link that you MUST check out!
http://www.epa.gov/globalwarming/kids/index.html

Have fun kids!