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Old 06-25-2009, 08:33 AM   #11
cyberzomby
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Default Re: Save German Paintball

They want to ban it because they train people to kill people. Humans have a natural feeling not to kill others. Reason why in WW 2 there where so many bullets fired but not hit.

Thats why they want to ban it. If your in the military, you are trained to kill others. BUT! you had to deal with some psycholigy tests.

I do agree that this is nonsense! Ban squirt guns as well! 'Cause theryre teaching kids to kill each other at the age of 5!

At least thats what I thought was wrong with this whole banning last time. Its not the fact that its realism like, but it was the fact that it trained people to kill other people.
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Old 06-25-2009, 08:52 AM   #12
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Default Re: Save German Paintball

Quote:
Humans have a natural feeling not to kill others. Reason why in WW 2 there where so many bullets fired but not hit.
what????? actually its a humans(not only humans) nature to compete, to fight, to get the best, the strongest survive, thats simple and thats why wars were, are and will happen.
I also dont get how game train you to kill people? you can ban PR with this reason


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Old 06-25-2009, 09:17 AM   #13
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Default Re: Save German Paintball

Quote:
Originally Posted by DankE_SPB View Post
what????? actually its a humans(not only humans) nature to compete, to fight, to get the best, the strongest survive, thats simple and thats why wars were, are and will happen.
I also dont get how game train you to kill people? you can ban PR with this reason
No we get wars because of the few men who are at the top have a different oppinion than the guy they want to go to war with (most of the times anyway)

Theres tons of reports on WW2, where men only got trained how to be a soldier, not to kill, that show that many soldiers in WW2 tried to miss instead of hit the other guy. Only a very small percentage could actually kill another human being.

After WW2, army's started training there troops to actually kill. The next big war (I think Vietnam it was) had totaly different stats hit/kill wise.

A game like Paintball teaches you, to aim at human shape and pulling a trigger, trying to kill him. Thats the aim of the game. To "kill" the opposition. Its not the same learn as you do in a class-room. its something deep down in your being.

Its taking away the resistance most of us feel when trying to kill another human being. At least thats what the prostanders of paintball/airsoft bannings say. To some level I can agree. It could teach you that. But to ban it? With modern day society and the amusement we have (Gaming, movies, television) theres tons of things that teach us how to kill.

EDIT: And yes you can also ban FPS for this reason like you said. One of the reason's why some really gory games dont make it in Germany.They get banned.
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Old 06-25-2009, 09:41 AM   #14
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Default Re: Save German Paintball

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Originally Posted by [R-COM]cyberzomby View Post
No we get wars because of the few men who are at the top have a different oppinion than the guy they want to go to war with (most of the times anyway)
but still, wars happen because as a result you can get territory/resources/weak another country/extend zone of your interest/influence world economy etc. maybe its not in interests of a random citizen, but if war is succesfull future generations will be able to use profits of this war

Quote:
Theres tons of reports on WW2, where men only got trained how to be a soldier, not to kill, that show that many soldiers in WW2 tried to miss instead of hit the other guy. Only a very small percentage could actually kill another human being.
do you mind posting some resources? not the interview, where one guy says it was hard for him and you project it to full army
as a soldier you're surely trained how to shoot and when you're in fight i cant get why people will shoot "to miss" while enemy shooting at them. you know its like in daily life, if somebody charges at you, you defend yourself and dont think about wounds of your opponent
Quote:
After WW2, army's started training there troops to actually kill. The next big war (I think Vietnam it was) had totaly different stats hit/kill wise.
again, any sources? whats that stats?
and its about interpreting numbers
US forced to import bullets from Israel as troops use 250,000 for every rebel killed - Americas, World - The Independent
you know, i can say that there are so many misses because soldiers dont want to kill or i can say its because they extensivly use suppresive fire and prefer overkill than being killed

Quote:
A game like Paintball teaches you, to aim at human shape and pulling a trigger, trying to kill him. Thats the aim of the game. To "kill" the opposition. Its not the same learn as you do in a class-room. its something deep down in your being.
shooting marker balls and actual killing is two different stories imo


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Old 06-25-2009, 10:40 AM   #15
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Default Re: Save German Paintball

It is, but the mechanism in your body/inner being rejects firing a live round or even aiming to kill. Paintball markers learn your being to negate that resistance to kill, as you did so a few times in Paintball.

As I said in my other post, its not something you "learn learn", but more like something that you learn and dont even notice. In your subconscience. Thats where things change. And like I said earlier: these are the theory's of the pro-paintball-bannings.

Ure right about the soldiers, but thats only after world war 2, where they realised that there soldiers needed training to overcome the fear of killing other people. Even when they where getting shot at. I didnt read just an interview of some guy. Ill see if I can find some sources. Ask around at people who are interested or know a lot of stuff about WW2 and I think they say the same. As "we"all read those articles.

As for source I did a quick google:

Heres a link that doesnt work anymore, but it shows there was an article that shows Im not making this up:
Only 15 to 20 percent of soldiers in WWII combat would fire at the enemy

Heres another quote that I just found of a forum, where someone quotes a book/military study:
Quote:
Now, getting back to the "willing to kill" aspect, Marshall's book cited an Army Medical Corps study of battle fatigue in the ETO which supposedly identified the largest cause of "battle failure" being the fear of killing - NOT the fear of being killed. Interestingly, the second largest cause was fear of failing comrades in battle. NOTE: Marshall did not use this study as an explanation of low firing percentages; he was just addressing battle fatigue. Others misapplied this narrow case (Battle fatigue) to try to explain the much broader issue of firing percentages.
snopes.com: Only 15% of WWII soldiers were willing to kill?

And heres another bit of info from this marshal guy who "discovered" this fact.

http://www.cynical-c.com/?p=8261

Like I said before, the people who WANT to ban airsoft/paintball/mil-simming, often use these arguments. I have read about this in a scientific magazine here in Holland as well some time ago so I thought it was more of a given fact than a study.

And than heres some more links that show that theres more people who believe in the theory that every human being (or most of us) have a natural tendency to not kill others.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...ad.php?t=72261
collumn with some facts from a british newspaper, about the conditioning the US army gives to there recruits so they overcome the no killing feeling

http://www.pbs.org/pov/soldiersofcon...escription.php
Description of a movie that shows the same. Big story with, I believe facts follow a short lead about the movie about that the movie is showing real stuff.

http://soldier-ethicist.blogspot.com...o-justify.html
From an army officer about the training the army gives to soldiers to make them want to kill. According to this officer they are more likely to get post traumatic stress because of this.

http://eric.doubtfulguest.net/MainPages/killing.html
Little collumn/article about video games and violence that also shows the percentage and mind setting of not wanting to kill.

And another about the stress and trauma's of killing and how the army came to training people to kill:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm..._combat21.html

One more:
http://www.thewe.cc/contents/more/ar...d_not_kill.htm

And the last:
http://cryptome.org/mil-kill.htm
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Old 06-25-2009, 10:52 AM   #16
DankE_SPB
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Default Re: Save German Paintball

Quote:
Ask around at people who are interested or know a lot of stuff about WW2 and I think they say the same
i had relatives who fought in ww2 and you know, even my grand grandmother, who was a frontline medical nurse told me some stories when she had to fight back and shoot at people in some occasions i would ask them what they think about this statement but they are dead now


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Old 06-25-2009, 10:57 AM   #17
cyberzomby
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Default Re: Save German Paintball

Sorry to hear that. It was not those people I meant tho. I didnt want to offend you. I meant people who might be study'ing history about WW2, as a hobby or work. Anyway I found a bunch of links showing that its not just from an interview, but that theres either a theory or proven facts about what I was saying.

I dont say I agree with them, but I can see why people would not want to kill. Ofcourse theres the few odd ones that do. And those are the ones who do school shootings or start wars.
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Old 06-25-2009, 12:17 PM   #18
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Default Re: Save German Paintball

But this threat was supposed to raise awarnes for the problems paintballers face in germany and to get germans to sign the petition
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Old 06-25-2009, 12:58 PM   #19
cyberzomby
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Default Re: Save German Paintball

yea, we went waaay of topic. Altough not all together since we talked about why they wanted to ban.
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:07 PM   #20
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Default Re: Save German Paintball

I can tell you why the want to ban it:
1. Elections are coming
2.They cant ban real guns
3.It has to appear as if they are doing something
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