Loose Change 2nd Edition

[AznLB]

Of course, you wouldn't say all those things, but the fact you even believe this garbage proves it.

This video proves nothing beyond speculation. It's produced by who? A bunch of college kids with too much free time? No experts outside of questionable "scholars", and a few quotes and recordings which can be interpreted in many different ways?

My question for you is: why would the American government want to kill 3,000 of its own people for no reason? Regardless of how it happened, how in God's name could the US actually benefit from this? Billions of dollars spent on war, massive debt, higher oil prices, thousands of troops dead, and not to mention hatred from every country in the Middle-East, putting us as even more danger -- It dosn't sound like the greatest payoff, bud.

[Eden]

What makes it garbage? I could easily say that the fact that you keep avoiding my question is proof that the government's version of what happened isn't the truth and you know it, but I wont.

I will keep asking the same question after every post I make here until someone answerer's it.

Your question(which oh look I'm answering): How could the government benefit from the deaths of 3000 people? tough question.
The main benefit the government gained was that it gave them a reason (and backed by the public because of it) to invade Iraq. But they would not be the only ones to benefit, the next beneficiary from the 3000 deaths would have to be the oil companies for two reasons, one they now control all the oil fields in Iraq and two it gave them a reason to increase oil prices.
There was also a third beneficiary or well multiple, with the collapse of WTC 7 a lot of financial data was lost witch left a lot of companies and individuals billions in the green.

One thing you have to realise and it may sound harsh, when it comes to money a few thousand deaths is nothing, heck I wouldn't be surprised if company's killed a few hundred a day as long as they benefited from it and got away from it.

They did it before and they will do it again, the Christian church is a good example of the lengths people will go if it benefits them. (and that one isnt a conspiracy theory )

[AznLB]

What question are you asking, exactly?

You keep saying that I'm not awnsering your question, but I'm pretty sure I have. You sound like a broken record, what is it you want from me?

You can say whatever you want, it dosn't mean it's true. What it comes down to is, I know there was no conspiracy. You can say what you like, however you live in Scotland, a country thousands of miles from here. I live in America, and I have first hand knowlege of my government, and how my country works. I also know that the economy has been worse here since 9/11 and the Afghanistan/Iraq wars. There is no possible way that anyone could profit from something like 9/11. There are a thousand other ways for companies to profit, rather than kill 3000 fellow citizens.

You're the typical "Oh wow, those huge corporations are tying to get us all! Those evil corporation with their, sucess, and, um, money!" retard. Do you think Oil really means that much to us? Let me tell you, the easiest way to get cheaper oil prices is to demand a better price from Middle Eastern countries, they will refuse and stop supplying us for maybe, 30 days? Then they'll come back begging to us to buy their oil at cheaper prices. The Mid-East oil companies cannot survive without the huge demand from America.

Now I know how financial coverups go, there are alot of fiascos with fortune 500 companies here, granted. But for our government to somehow decide to defend the people it's prosecuting, plant some bombs, and kill 3000 people just to hide some documents that companies could easily shred: I don't think so.

Face it: you're wrong. You know you're wrong, you just want to hold on to this shamble of a belief, so you can touch yourself at night thinking about how much you hate the American government. It's people like you that make me doubt the sanity of individuals in this world. Seriously, give it up.

[Eden]

My actualy question was provide me with one solid peice of proof that any of the buildings fell under there own power or any solid peice of proof of what hit the pentagon. There really isnt any, although the goverment have videos which would proove or disproof this they wont show them to anyone.

I find the namecalling unnesesery, I have not atemted to use such words against you I would have hoped to have recived the same.

We will agree to disagree

[Lifetaker]

I'm not sure any of us can be 100% on who is right and whos is wrong here, as none of us have all the answers. I will not disagree with you Eden that there are coverups galore within ANY government. However, the kind of conspiracy you're talking about here is vast and Hollywoodesque in proportion. I find it pretty hard to swallow that a certain special interest group within the US government plotted this entire catastrophe in order to have public support for an attack on Iraq and potentially gain control of oil in that region. I have said before and I will say again, don't simplify the government into one all inclusive group. There are many people of influence and power that adamently disagree with eachother within our government. Not to mention that there are certainly spies of other governing powers with their feelers all over us. I guess I'm just not sure why you feel so convinced by this one piece of "evidence". It's like watching a Micheal Moore "documentary" and saying you know all about the subject based on the information you were given in it. If you want answers, you must delve deep. Too deep for you to get to. You just have no access to the information and niether to the people who made this film. This so called documentary that you have posted is based purely on conjecture.

This being said, I would tend to agree that there were coverups regarding September 11, but I think they are more a matter of individual people and perhaps small groups trying to cover up how poorly the flow of information and intelligence was managed before, during and after this event. People covering their asses, not some all inclusive grand scheme to drive the US into a state of war and global unpopularity. Talk about bad business!

One more thing:
"They did it before and they will do it again, the Christian church is a good example of the lengths people will go if it benefits them. (and that one isnt a conspiracy theory)"

This may not be a conspiracy theory, but it is one hell of an ignorant statement. Much like government, there is no such thing as "The Christian Church". There are many churches, many sects, all comprised of individuals with there own thoughts and feelings. I'm not even sure what you're refering to. Historical Roman Catholic wars and occupations? Protestant militarism? Bush's "agenda"? I'm confused. But I would suggest that in the future you be more specific. And slamming someone's religion is a quick way to get this thread locked.

[Eden]

Yes I realise that wasnt very specific, unfortunatly I can not remember the specific part of christianity it was, I belvie It may have been the Roman Catholics but dont take my full word on that. What I was specificly refering to was the wars and murders that took place against non-belivers and more specificly was the rewriteing of the 4 books of Jesus' death so that they all told the same story.

I do not belive the entire conspiracy on 911 and I will never fully belive it because although it brings a plasable alternative to what happened (and what I belive to me a more likely explination to how the buildings collapsed) it cannot frovide proof of everything but that doesnt mean I belive the goverments version either.

Its nice to see at least you are keeping an open mind about things.

As Ive just mentioned above what was shown in the video does not convince me about what happened but what it does do is bring me a step closer to finding out what I belive happened. I dont just take someones word for it, I am researching the goverments story and I am researching the what was said in the video I will come to my own conclusion of what I think happeded and most likely it will be different from both the goverments version and the videos version.

lol which to tell you the truth doesnt bring anyone closer to what really happened but at least im finding out for myself.

[Nevermore]

The 'Pancake Theory" which you so wantonly wish to discredit can be proved by any reasonably educated Martial Artist /and or high school physics teacher bubba.

Any Karateka or Kung Fu guy whos broken more than 5 boards in a stack can attest to the accuracy of the physics used to perpetuate such a seemingly amazing feat, the broken edges of each board redirect the physical force imparted onto the first board at the top of the stack.

Now, this isnt an exact match to the WTC Centers falling, but the explanation is an easily explainable one regarding the towers collapse.

Plane hits towers @ over 500MPH, this force weakens support structure within the building, the resultant weakening causes the weight of the remaining upper floors to no longer be in a stable state, directly contributing to the collapse onto the remaining floors BELOW the impact floor, this cascade effect of weight being dumped {read: drastic physical change of evenly distributed force in a static state}.

Now, noone can say for sure this is EXACTLY what caused the collapse, but many people would say it is a REASONABLE EXTRAPOLATION OF SCIENTIFIC FACTS or THEORY if you will. This thoery i find easier to swallow than a mass conspiracy somewhat akin to an X-files episode, but thats just me.

I'm playing Devils Advocate here, but i think your blindly defending a conspiracy theory that SEEMS factual and scientific, when in all reality gives very few real concrete and coherent provable strings.

Its not to say its not well presented to be sure, but there are always OTHER ways to explain each situation and each piece of evidence, it just all comes down to what you WANT to believe as a reasonable explanation. I'm not saying your belief is wrong, im just simply suggestiong that maybe you need to reevaluate the science youve either uesed or not used to come to your belief, its different than mine and a lot of other peoples

Not to mention if your using the conspiracy theorists who speak halftruths for whats obviously a college thesis project of someone whos at an age where everything is a conspiracy might not be as sound as you suggest

In the end its your belief against someone elses, its an inarguable, and dead end discussion that will end with bad feelings and this thread being locked.

There i answered your original question, to explain how, under its own power a building can collapse upon itself.

[OAKside]

Originally Posted by Eden

What make you believe I am anti-American?
What makes you believe ill "blatently discredit anything or anyone"?
What makes you believe ill "jump on the bandwagon with any anti-American conspiracy"?

It seems this day and age, if you disagree with what the US and many of it's citizens [are told to] believe, you'll get this label and worse in a hurry. It's amazing, really.

Loose Change 911 does a remarkable job at presenting more facts and credible information to this horribly handled incidient. It doesn't matter who produced the video - it's over an hour of solid documentation from hundreds of identifiable sources, not a five minute audio from a couple of conspiracy theorists.

All in all, what's wrong with asking for more facts? If it will set everything straight, for all eternity, for such a huge global issue? Damage has been done, years have gone by to manipulate facts, it may be too late anyway. The US government and leaders are just adding to it's enemies and doubters.

Great find Eden, Thank You.

[AznLB]

Originally Posted by Eden

Yes I realise that wasnt very specific, unfortunatly I can not remember the specific part of christianity it was, I belvie It may have been the Roman Catholics but dont take my full word on that. What I was specificly refering to was the wars and murders that took place against non-belivers and more specificly was the rewriteing of the 4 books of Jesus' death so that they all told the same story.

Wow, do you mean the crusades? Yes, those were the Roman Catholics. It's pretty unnerving that you don't even know who carried out the Crusades, yet you supposedly have a vast knowlege about how my government rigged 9/11...


Anyway, I think I've explained the pancake theory enough, but since that's not enough for you, I suggest you watch "9/11: Anatomy of a Collapse". It's availiable on video through the Discovery channel I believe, and is replayed from time to time on that channel. The video does a great job at explaining exactly what happened, with testimony from hundreds of scientists and physicists. It also goes into great detail about the metal used in the towers, the heat produced by the explosion, and the mechanics behind the collapse. It was made by discovery, so no "Ooh, conservative brainwashing propaganda" to worry about. I suggest you watch, although I don't think it wil get through to you.

I'm sorry I have come on such unfriendly terms with you, but I take a great hatred to individuals who strike me as moronic and ignorant, and you have the misfortune of coming across as such to me.

[Eden]

Oh thanks for telling me about that video, ill have to see if I can find it somewhere.

You shouldnt miss judge people before you find out a little about them, just because I do not belive what the goverment is saying is true doesnt make me moronic or ignorant infact I would say quite the oposite, I like to get all the facts, the goverment refuses to provide them so I have to look else where.