Shocking Study

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

Now I think Saobh has overreached himself and put his cultural morays out there as a paradigm for the whole world.
The irony in the war against radical, violent Muslim groups is that the people most likey to defend and excuse them are the very people that even traditional Muslims find repellent and soulless.
It is America's very openness to sex ( porn star runs for Govenor in California ) that is why the extremist Muslims call us the great satan.

What I think Saobh is saying is, that what he feels sex and relationships should be is the proper way, and all those who disagree are simply not as sophisticated or knowledgeable.


There are obviously more factors than simply choosing not to have sex because of a fear of pregnancy, or the incredibly mature and long range thinking of: " I wasn't going to be able to sustain a meaningful relationship because within a few short years she and I would likely be going to a different college " ; a statement I find stunning that a 15yo would make, but it takes all kinds.

[101 bassdrive]

AD&D wait, what?!
did you know iranian imams hand out 1daymarriages because the urges of the youth otherwise get totally out of hand?
wait and see, such radical systems are bound to collapse from within.
you generalize that quite a bit, not all are radical you know.
my buddy for example is half iranian, his parents fled after the revolution and he told me that the youth knows where they can meet, put off the burka, drink and have fun. they even snowboard!
saobh is right Id say, check this:
http://www.unconfirmedsources.com/?itemid=794
the smarter you are the more open minded, the less blackwhite dogmatic moral standards you have.
and honestly, who gives a sh*t about whatll happen with your relationship in a few years when youre in love? "sorry baby, but I dont want to be with you because in a few years youll be in another town than me..." haha sorry but no way

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

Originally Posted by 101 bassdrive

AD&D wait, what?!
did you know Iranian imams hand out 1 day marriages because the urges of the youth otherwise get totally out of hand?
wait and see, such radical systems are bound to collapse from within.
you generalize that quite a bit, not all are radical you know.

I know that prostitution exists in the Muslim world, with the one day marriages that may only last an hour.
That is hardly an example of a sexually free society.
Not surprisingly, this legalized system of slavery and oppression has led to a growing sex-trafficking industry that is partially operated by government officials and mullahs themselves. The girls who are forced into this system of sexual and economic slavery are typically transported to various countries in the Persian Gulf and are sold to individuals as well as to established brothels. The budding industry of sexual trafficking of Iranian girls has led to growing concerns about the spread of AIDS/HIV and other sexually-transmitted diseases throughout the region.

That doesn't sound like a modern progressive system to me but then again I generalize right ?
It seems like a great system, if you are a pedophile, but wait ...is there a link between religious figures and pedophilia ?
Probably not, I mean it's only about a billion dollars in hush money paid out by the Vatican in the last 50 years so I doubt there is a problem.
"not all are radical you know" .... No, I didn't know that, because I made the effort to point out that the war is against a certain segment of the Muslim world and not the Muslim world in general why would I ever think that they are not all radical ?

Originally Posted by 101 bassdrive

my buddy for example is half Iranian, his parents fled after the revolution and he told me that the youth knows where they can meet, put off the burka, drink and have fun. they even snowboard!

That is whats' called anecdotal evidence and is generally disregarded.
The fact that women were arrested recently for "fashion violations" and men were badly beaten and made to drink from urinals gives me more of an idea of how sexuality and openness are dealt with under sharia.

[101 bassdrive]

so, do you think that state can be upheld for long? it will implode, for sure.
every intervention from outside will slow it down though since it fuels the government, above all the mullahs, with new reasons and arguments why to uphold this status quo and enemy figure ( satan usa and israel)
I would like to clarify Im not talking about no '38 munich style backing up.

about the iranian buddy, yeah, that became clear to me aswell after I posted. gonna check for links and edit em in..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/692411.stm
http://www.iran-e-sabz.org/news/youth.htm

[Expendable Grunt]

Bass, it's not an excuse, it's a fact. I know how to use a condom -- sex ed is part of high school (and middle school for me). I was being truthful when I said I was more worried about it failing. Sex isn't bound to marriage, at least not in my faith. I'm serious when I say that I didn't want to risk being a father in high school. I don't have sex with someone I'm not attached to, and back in high school I was only ever "that close" with one person, and I wasn't totally sure I was going to be able to "be" with her for any length of time, so I skirted around the issue. Lo and behold, she and I aren't even friends anymore, let alone "with" each other.

Call it an excuse all you want, but it is in fact wise thinking.

As it is I wouldn't have sex with someone until I was 6 months or so into a relationship with a woman anyways; My current relationship status is nobody's real business, but I can tell you I haven't been seeing a woman for 6 months yet.

EDIT: Thanks for the compliment, AD&D, though I'm 19 now and still have the same idea.

[sekiryu]

Sex...has nothing to do with a relationship.

Wait until you get a divorce because you're fruitcaging another woman.

and high pregnancy rate is a proof of no sexual education since it isnt being allowed -> repressed.

Then why is it that every school has sex ed, and after said classes, the girls get pregnant?

[[R-MOD]Saobh]

Originally Posted by ArmedDrunk&Angry

What I think Saobh is saying is, that what he feels sex and relationships should be is the proper way, and all those who disagree are simply not as sophisticated or knowledgeable.

And the fact that you need to translate what I've said does not indicate that you have a better understanding of things at all.
Even tho English isn't my natural language, I do believe that my posts in themselves are sufficient for people to understand my meaning.

So please go against my arguments rather then going for the messenger.
Thank you.

As for sexuality in the US ?
"Sexual Behavior and Selected Health Measures: Men and Women 15–44 Years of Age, United States, 2002"

Originally Posted by sekiryu

Wait until you get a divorce because you're fruitcaging another woman.

Well in the end thats not a problem about sex, its a problem about dishonesty.
But it does demand a lot more maturity and openness with your partner as well as the rest of your life in fact.
So its a lot easier to make up some "moral codes" which go against basic human nature and which people always end up falling back to. But because they have no experience of how to deal with it it usually finishes badly.
Thus the cheating husbands (and wifes, as lets not forget women have an equal appetite, just don't show it off to the world as much ), the unwanted pregancies (as your not even supposed to be having sex before marriage) or just simple down right rotten in bed as people have no idea how to do it properly.

Then why is it that every school has sex ed, and after said classes, the girls get pregnant?

Oh, so it never crossed their mind to have sex before "sex ed" ? You'd be interested to know that sexual curiosity can be observed in children as young as 5, and are in fact an extension of the child's development. No its not Mickey and Minnie who are giving them ideas ...
But if indeed they are getting pregnant even tho they are getting "sex ed" then its probably pretty badly done,which it usually is. Things like projectreality.org certainly don't help

[puglous]

You'd be interested to know that sexual curiosity can be observed in children as young as 5, and are in fact an extension of the child's development. No its not Mickey and Minnie who are giving them ideas ...

Erm, I hope you realize sexual curiousity isn't the same as a sex drive any more than morbid curiousity is the same as sadism.

Personally, I don't care about whether anyone sees sex as a part of a relationship or "fun" any more than I care about whether people view meals as a social occasion or a way to stay alive, but naturally any moral code is going to go against human nature, or there would be no reason to put them into place.

[ArmedDrunk&Angry]

Originally Posted by Saobh

And the fact that you need to translate what I've said does not indicate that you have a better understanding of things at all.
Even tho English isn't my natural language, I do believe that my posts in themselves are sufficient for people to understand my meaning.

So please go against my arguments rather then going for the messenger.
Thank you.

Originally Posted by Saobh

Sex is fun and has nothing to do with a relationship.

Putting sexuality up unto such a high pedestal only ends up with very repressed people. And repressed people ... well they have a tendency of going to war with other people for very poor reasons.

I make no mention of the messenger.
You state that a certain position is simply so, and that reflects your opinion without qualifying as "just your opinion" which makes it flat statement subject to contradiction.

Thousands of years of culture and most of them thought sex and relationships did matter, largely because sex resulted in children who were then entitled or not entitled to things based on the relationship between the mother and the father.

Western culture has only recently adopted the single parent family as the norm and most stats show it is not working very well.
Single parent family situations happen predominately with young people, and counseling young people to not have sex until they are married or in a committed relationship is hardly "repressing" them.

The world is large and has enough room for many varieties of relationships, but it seems to me, that the core one of a mother and father raising a child is of some slight importantance to the furtherance of the human race.

That leads me to believe that encouraging every divergent behavior possible and considering" anything that feels good, do it " to be a logical starting place for sexual exploration is not in the best interests of the society as a whole.

There is a mid point between hedonism and repression.

[[R-MOD]Saobh]

Originally Posted by ArmedDrunk&Angry

I make no mention of the messenger.

Well, lets see:

Originally Posted by ArmedDrunk&Angry

Now I think Saobh has overreached himself and put his cultural morays out there as a paradigm for the whole world.

And

Originally Posted by ArmedDrunk&Angry

What I think Saobh is saying is, that what he feels sex and relationships should be is the proper way, and all those who disagree are simply not as sophisticated or knowledgeable.

Come on, its on the same page

Originally Posted by ArmedDrunk&Angry

You state that a certain position is simply so, and that reflects your opinion without qualifying as "just your opinion" which makes it flat statement subject to contradiction.

Well in all fairness, yes a few links to such studies would help out. But frankly I don't have the time to go data mining thru the web for directly and concise on topic studies. But fell free to do so, they are scattered around.

And I find the "that what he feels sex and relationships should be is the proper way" interesting. As this is where we both diverge, I don't start by "feeling" something then roll facts around it to make it "be". Observation, studies and research based on the facts are what shapes my point of view.
Its facts towards the theory, rather then top down.

Originally Posted by ArmedDrunk&Angry

Thousands of years of culture and most of them thought sex and relationships did matter, largely because sex resulted in children who were then entitled or not entitled to things based on the relationship between the mother and the father.

No in fact much more on the family in a larger sense and on the community. The one couple for life is pretty new in human society, and is very rare in the animal realm. The other 2 "evolved" species (bonobos and dolphins) have in fact a pretty free sex life.
Also,what do you make of Polygamy ? Matriarchal societies ? or the fact that marriages where more about sealing a deal between families then have anything to do about "Love"

[quote=ArmedDrunk&Angry]Western culture has only recently adopted the single parent family as the norm and most stats show it is not working very well.[quote]

The norm ? Well even tho it has indeed grown I doubt the majority of those people are in such situations by choice. Between an unhappy couple (at the best) or an ongoing murderous drama (at the worst)
If the parents are unhappy I seriously doubt that the kids will be much better off. And I have generations of stats and crisis to back that up.

Originally Posted by ArmedDrunk&Angry

Single parent family situations happen predominately with young people, and counseling young people to not have sex until they are married or in a committed relationship is hardly "repressing" them.

So pretty much because society is stuck into the past and doesn't know how to adapt, people have to commit to the "1 partner in your life doctrine" which has only brewed much hypocrisy and alot of blood throughout the ages.
Not willing to face such reality in the basic fabric of what we are, is one of the reasons our societies, even tho it has made spectacular advances technology wise, is pretty much at the same stage it was a couple of thousand years ago.

Originally Posted by ArmedDrunk&Angry

The world is large and has enough room for many varieties of relationships, but it seems to me, that the core one of a mother and father raising a child is of some slight importantance to the furtherance of the human race.

Precision, between a fatherly figure and motherly figure, which can be pretty much anyone in their community who take those roles upon themselves.
Be it older people (the grand parents)
Of different bloodlines (foster parents)
Or even different sex (homosexual parents)
The important thing for a child is having a loving structure in which to evolve in, and that can exist in multiple forms.

Originally Posted by ArmedDrunk&Angry

That leads me to believe that encouraging every divergent behavior possible and considering" anything that feels good, do it " to be a logical starting place for sexual exploration is not in the best interests of the society as a whole.

Divergent from what ? when ? which continent ? or are you talking from a purely US Christian moral based one ? Which in itself is pretty new.
And no "anything that feels good" is not such a way, because you miss my other point. Sex is between (usually ) 2 people, its an exchange. Not one taking from the other.
So like in any other social interaction, if there is not respect towards other person it will not be a sustainable behavior.

Originally Posted by ArmedDrunk&Angry

There is a mid point between hedonism and repression.

Yes and understanding that humans are just an other species like the others helps ti find it.