Do You Believe This ?

[101 bassdrive]

here in switzerland we had a greyzone on cannabis trade throughout the nineties up to shortly after the millenium.
what happend was, the growers improved the thc value per gram and at the same time, due to competition, the prices dropped.
so you had weed out there with a 40 percent thc value based on its mass,
and a price of, at its best, 3-4 swiss franks ( 4.5-6 $) per gramm.
we even had a coffeyshop in our little town here with 8000 residents
people were smoking like no tomorrow. from dusk till dawn.
I remember, there was not once in that time I ran out of weed, for surely a period of 5 years.
and at the same time the admissions to mental institutes exploded under the 15-19 year olds. an undisputable fact and proof.
though I must say from personal experience, that most of these people probably had tried harder stuff i.e. mushrooms, acid, mesc and so on, the threshold on drugs had dropped so far that you started to get mushrooms in shops. those strong hallucinogens are the ones which trigger illness. weed then, and only then can, amplify it.

[Wolfmaster]

Originally Posted by JP*wasteland.soldier

Haha. A few beers instead? I'm afraid you're certainly looking at more long term damage there bud.

When I was heavy into the buds, I smoked about 3.5 grams (an "eighth") per day, every day. That's not how much I rolled up and passed around the circle, that's how much I personally consumed. And that was in Vancouver, where I had some very, very good connections. I did this for about two years, and then quit. It took me several months to get completely back to where I had been before, but now three or so years later, I'm back to testing in the 98th percentile for IQ, exactly where I was before. Of course this is just a single person's anecdote, but I have noticed this same thing in any of my friends that once smoked and now don't.

Also, the argument that current strains are stronger doesn't do anything for me. Current users smoke less at a time. Really the only thing that better strains does is make you have to inhale less smoke, which is a good thing.

You cannot imply causation from correlation. There are two important confounding variables to consider when you look at these studies. First, cannabis is consumed more by the lower classes, where there is also a higher rate of mental illness. Second, many people with chronic illnesses use cannabis, and these people are prone to depression. Many studies have shown a correlation between cannabis users and the depressed, but other studies that have controlled for chronic diseases have shown that cannabis use is actually negatively correlated to depression.

Finally, many studies into drugs receive NIDA funding, or are conducted by researchers that are likely to pursue government grants in the future, and therefore they can hardly be described as "unbiased".

On the other hand, it's important to note that in some ways, cannabis acts as a psychedelic, and I certainly wouldn't advise anybody concerned about their mental state to use a psychedelic. This mostly goes for true psychedelics, such as mushrooms, acid, or DMT. But to a lesser extent the same goes for cannabis. Some people were never meant to peek behind the veil.

The guru has spoken. Makes sense to me.

[DrMcCleod]

Originally Posted by JP*wasteland.soldier

You cannot imply causation from correlation. There are two important confounding variables to consider when you look at these studies. First, cannabis is consumed more by the lower classes, where there is also a higher rate of mental illness. Second, many people with chronic illnesses use cannabis, and these people are prone to depression. Many studies have shown a correlation between cannabis users and the depressed, but other studies that have controlled for chronic diseases have shown that cannabis use is actually negatively correlated to depression.

I agree that without a specific mechanism it is easy to confuse correlation and causation. Also, different people may react differently to exposure. This is stated clearly in this article where the effects that you describe above were taken into account.

However, you comments regarding depression are misleading, the depressive effects of cannabis are well known, indeed you have experienced them in a mild form yourself. We are talking out severe mental health problems such as Schizophrenia, the sort of illnesses where, frankly, the sufferer is better off dead. It is not sensible to ignore medical findings that you don't like, simply by impuning the motives of the researchers.
Bluntly, you are responsible for your own health, it makes sense to take into account medical opinion when deciding on your self-medication. This is why most people drink alcohol only in moderation.

[[R-MOD]Wasteland]

I don't mean depression as in "depressive effects". I mean clinical depression. If you don't think this is a serious mental condition, you've never had a friend commit suicide.

I agree that there is some evidence that cannabis can cause latent psychoses to manifest themselves more apparently, but I believe from personal experience that these effects don't "come out of nowhere", and that the people who experience them were never in perfect mental health to begin with.

[[R-DEV]Gaz]

Still illegal though, isn't it? To be quite frank, it's your life and do with it what you will. Everyone makes their own choices and you alone must face the short/medium/long term consequences of any actions.

I don't really care about people taking drugs. What I care about are those who go on to higher classification drugs and resort to violent crime to feed the habit. That's when others get hurt or more serious and it no longer 'just affects the user'.

[Heliocentric]

remember the old "masturbation makes you insane".

Because it was observed that people in insane asylums masturbate a lot?
But in all honesty it was because they were bored.

Sure, you can look at this that way too, but I've seen people get damaged by drugs, and then others who more suicidal thrill seeker before cannabis took the "edge" off them and they became much calmer.

So, as a non smoker of even ciggies, i don't have that much of a first person perspective, but my mother works in a rehab/mental unit mostly lifers, people who will never get out or keep coming back until they die.

These people were damaged by drugs, most were only cannabis smokers, but unless you grow you own? god knows what's in what you buy, maybe its not the cannabis but crap people selling it add to save money.

To be honest, some people are born crazy but it takes a shock to make it obvious and a hallucination might be just the ticket.

[Dark_Wolf]

I used to be a fairly heavy toker, though not as much as JP (how did you walk? lol), though now I just do it now and then on weekends with mates.

When I was younger I used to be less accepting of the dangers newspapers went on and on about, but there is some truth to some of the claims. I for one I'm quite strong minded so it never really affected me as badly as it did some of my mates who don't smoke at all anymore as can't handle it. It wasn't just paranoia for them but made them think a lot and they didn't like since they weren't generally happy with their lives anyway.

For me, as a screenwriter I found it was fun and sometimes handy for creative stuff, though I have to admit that heavy use completely negates all that as you kinda become a mong. Sure, if you stop for a while most people can return to normal and their head clears.

I'll start by mentioning where this kind of evidence could likely be true. Firstly, there are so many different forms of cannabis now that are ridiculously strong and I suppose the only comparison I can come up with is it would be like exchanging all your pints of beer for straight up spirits
Some cannabis is also grown with chemicals which obviously alter the effects on the body and mind because you've got additional substances.

Where the whole mental health thing is very true I think is when kids smoke it. Especially in the UK where we've had a big spike in 12 yr olds getting high (sometimes even younger than that). Not only are their minds still developing physically, their mindset is obviously extremely immature. For an adult, generally we can control mild paranoia because part of us know it's just the drugs and our minds are a lot more logical and developed than kids. For a kid to heavily smoke cannabis I would say it's quite likely that they could develop mental health problems.

Ok, now my main problem with how the media keep tackling this is that they use all these bullshit phrases like "gateway" drugs and blame cannabis for crimes that are committed by people who were psycho in the first place. When this guy in the UK killed his friend with a hammer whilst stoned, immediately the drug was blamed. Of course, they fail to take into account this guy grew up in a run down council estate rife with drug dealers and violence and had a fascination for weapons in the first place.

This whole gateway drug thing bothers me largely because alcohol isn't considered a drug when in fact it is, it's just a legal one. Surely the "gateway" drug would be the substance that first takes you out of reality and your normal manners? Surely people get pissed long before they get stoned (maybe not as much these days with so many chavs on the street )

I don't, for the record, think drinking is the same as toking in terms of health. I think both are very different and alcohol is probably the most damaging physically, and cannabis is more damaging mentally, in the long term at least.
Course people will go on and on about cannabis damaging lungs etc. but completely forget about the fact that you can eat the stuff. I could smoke weed during the day and still function better than I would had I been drinking all day.

Lastly, they always talk about joints being the equivalent of this and that like 22 fags or whatever. Well I'll say this, how long is a piece of string? Alcohol is measured exactly in pints and mls, cannabis isn't an exact science. You can't determine what a joint can do, though perhaps you could from the amount of weed put in it. You can make very small joints, joints with little weed in them or killer joints with half a bag in (bit of a waste but, hey ).

We have such a large media buzz around cannabis at the moment just because it was reduced from a Class B drug to C and the media feels this has sent a message to young people it's perfectly safe to smoke.

I wouldn't personally recommend anyone still in school (like before uni at least) to start smoking a lot because it probably would badly affect their work and it's an important time. I didn't start smoking until I started uni though even then obviously is not a good time to get heavy into it.

People say that it's proof cannabis can cause schizoprenia, yet that's the point isn't it? CAN cause schizoprenia in SOME people depending on their use. I've smoked a shitload in my time and I'm not schizoprenic - isn't that proof that they may not be entirely right?

It reminds me also of when people blame violent video games on people killing each other and say this is evidence that they're a problem. Of course, they completely forget to even include the millions and millions of gamers who have probably never hurt a fly in their life. Isn't THAT proof it's all bullshit?

Everyone's different both mentally and physically. Sure give stuff warning labels and educate people, but stop trying to wrap us all in cotton wool and dictate our choices in life, especially in the UK.

Grand Theft Auto: WARNING: this product may turn you into a violent c*nt

[[R-COM]Outlawz]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Happy

If it is true, my school reunion is going to be quite interesting.

Same...but thats next year, so Ill have to wait

[JohnnyPissoff]

Ironic and totally transparent, as these were the very same tactics used in the original campaign to criminalize cannabis back in the "Reefer Madness" days. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. THIS IS 2007 NOT 1939!!!

It's sickeningly natural and of showing no shame that the Medical/Pharmaceutical industry is involved in these studies. They have the most to gain financially by suppressing cannabis.

It has taken years of positive propaganda (health benefits of cannabis use) just to get the world to re-think the degradation of making outlaws out of ordinarily law abiding citizens that enjoy cannabis. The slightest negative propaganda is enough to keep the status quo.

Damn you bastards...and get off of my cloud!!!

[OiSkout]

Hm. Well this one time I did think I was going crazy. But it was probably just really good shit haha.