Thoughts

Rick_D · 01-08-2007, 01:52 PM

Hello, I don't normally sign up to forums just to complain, so this is a bit of a first for me. Some of you will probably flame or be offended (especially the devs, I know you work hard to bring something to the ungrateful masses for free, I apologise in advance).

I usually play a lot of realistic (or so called) games, it's my favourite kind of gaming experience because you have to use your head as much as you have to use your hand-eye coordination.
Through IRC I was encouraged to get PRM, I had to reinstall BF2 (which, frankly, I found to be a pretty weak game but at the very least it was a fun "run 'n' gun" style game where you had some occaisional teamplay). The last BF2 mod I played was PoE2 which prompted me to uninstall BF2 after I realised that there's simply not a lot you can do to the BF2 engine as far as modding goes to make it any different, not to mention the lag was unbearable at times.

I give you this blarb just to let you know where I am coming from, I'm not some idiot who just wants to flame you for your hard work.

However, after playing the game for some 3 days now (trying hard to find a good European server that doesn't kick/ban for swearing or accidental TK's - the skins are ridiculously similar, and saying "shit" seems to be worse than spawn camping or purposeful wounding in most server admins eyes..) I'm pretty disapointed. The game was built up by the person who encouraged me to download it to such a point that I found it hard to believe what he was saying was true - various reviews built up the community and the gameplay to make it sound like Red Orchestra meets OFP; I found the game to be exactly like BF2 but with 1 or 2 shot kills - the people playing in 2-man locked squads, squad leaders and members wandering off on their own, the camping of ridiculous spots, the outrageous (and I mean fkn unplayable) lag spikes and the arrogance of players towards newbies made the whole experience a total washout for me.

Spawning in an open area and getting shot instantly by people camping on rooves looking into the spawn (seems to be a common theme in all the custom maps - by custom I mean the official PRM maps); lagging from one alleyway to another, across streets and getting shot by peopel camping the spawn exits - I dunno, nothing about the game seemed fun to me, and I'm used to some pretty annoying gameplay that can be found in 'realistic' games.

And that brings me to realism, I'm not entirely sure what was realistic about PRM - the class system and the damage might be considered realistic but when put into practice they both seem to fail due to the way BF2 is designed and the very little control modders have to change things. I hated the gameplay, and I hated getting killed by people camping spawns, waiting 30 seconds (or more depending on how buggy the game wanted to be, and how lame the Squad Leaders decided to be - not getting healed so you can't spawn on them etc) only to get shot by the same guy again. The flying is unchanged, as is the driving, adding high damage and long respawn times just doesn't sell the realism thing to me, there's too much that is untouched that detracts from it.

I won't be playing the mod again until I get hassled into playing it by my buddies on IRC, and I cerrtainly won't be eagerly awaiting the next version, it just seems that the whole experience has been very unpolished and a waste of time.

No offence (I'm sure nobody cares anyway ;D), flame away, do what you will. This game has failed at realism

DirtyHarry88 · 01-08-2007, 01:55 PM

It is a game and it does a bloody good job at realism given the LIMITS of the ENGINE.

I also don't see the problems with driving, maybe you're just shite

Downtown_two · 01-08-2007, 02:11 PM

You need to find the right players. One day I can be kursing the aboslute diabolical crap I see in games and it makes me hate it, then hours later I can jump into a game with 5 guys/girls on VOIP,they work as a team and communicate and it becomes the best thing I've ever experienced on a computer.

[R-DEV]bosco · 01-08-2007, 02:11 PM

You can only mod the game, not the players.
If you want to have fun, play late and join a VoIP squad.
Or join the PR Tournament, teamplay guaranteed.

Mekstizzle · 01-08-2007, 02:21 PM

Don't agree with much of your post but I can see where you're coming from. I agree with the Rooftop campers, it's ridiculous ....the amount of roofs accessable in PR is way over the top. Might aswell call it Battlefield 2: Spiderman.

It's annoying when you're having some good action on the ground, using cover and whatnot. Especially Muttrah, it would be a much more free-flowing map if it didn't have every single roof accesable by ladder.

Guerra norte · 01-08-2007, 02:34 PM

Forget trying to get a good gaming expirience on a euro server, there's hardly ANY teamwork on them, pluss nobody uses VoIP ( language barrier?)
However, if you're lucky and come across the veteran players who do use VoIP I can guarantee you will have a pretty nice gaming expirience.

I too think this mod fails at realism(doesn't mean the mod is bad though), but that's not why I play it, I play it for having a very teamwork/mature oriented community, but as I and others have said, it all depends on where and when you play.

[R-DEV]eggman · 01-08-2007, 02:37 PM

Good comments and taking the time to make them is much appreciated - tyvm.

We can't "mod the players" so teamwork and bad attitudes are unfortunately in the hands of players. If you are really into high level of teamplay you could look into the PR Tournament.

We have tried to create an environment where teamplay is rewarded. So, as an example, the spawn times are NOT 30s .. the spawn times are actually 0s. There is a 30s "unconscious" time that, unless you were headshotted, you can be revived by a Medic (using very unrealistic defibrillators that we left in because they really encourage and reward teamwork). Medics are an unlimited class so every squad should have one, stay close to them and you'll see less spawn time and more combat time.

If you are getting spawn camped... yeah there are some maps that have some issues that seem to "promote" spawn camping. We hope we have addressed the map specific issues there with the next release. But we can't stop players from spawning into a base that is being spawn camped. You need to spawn somewhere else.

The spawning mechanisms in BF2 are some of the last dimensions to the Infantry play that we have not overhauled. With the next release we're taking the first of two steps to overhaul the spawning mechanism. We're separating the concept of CP control and the ability to spawn at that CP. And putting the ability to spawn and where to spawn into the hands of players. So things should be much less predictable and should hopefully help minimise spawn camping.

Another area that we've not really done much with is around the CP capture logic. What's in PR v0.4 is pretty much the "vanilla" flag cap logic. While we use the AAS game mode, which enforces a linear order of "supply line" connectivity to the CPs, the problems with the "vanilla" flag capture logic are even more accentuated with AAS. So we're rewritten the game mode and the flag cap logic. We hope the new logic will also help to minimize spawn camping. With the current logic, spawn camping IS basically part of capturing a CP and this is a bad thing. We'll see how it goes in v0.5 and make some adjustments from there.

wrt flying and driving.. well .. not sure I understand what you are expecting there.. 4 wheels and a steering wheel... don't really know how much more we can do there.

wrt vehicles like aircraft, helicopters and tanks... we're just now getting to paying some attention to the vehicular aspects of the mod so it will take a couple of releases to get that where we'd like it. To date we've been focused on the Infantry play.

Lag issues are likely performance issues in the mod. We've made huge strides there for the next release .. which you don't care about

DICE / EA had a team of about 30 people work on BF2 for about 3 years as their full time occupations. That's about 90 man years of labor to extend BF1942 (which had about the same amount of man years into it).

We've had about 40 people .. on and off .. work on PR as a part time hobby for about 1.5 years .. so at 25% time dedication and an average of about 20 people, we've had about 7.5 man years of labor to get PR where it is today.

Or about 8% of the time EA / DICE put into BF2. I think we've done a great job to move the mod further from BF2 in that sort of labor comparison and will continue to do so over the coming months.

Let me flip it back atcha... since Project Reality is so disappointing .. can you give me examples of "first person, combined arms, realism and teamplay oriented multiplayer shooters" that you think we should look to for inspiration?

Give me a list of 3 good ones that have:
- multiplayer up to 64 players
- vehicles including jeeps, APCs, tanks, aircraft, helicopters and such
- moderate to high fidelity realism

... and I'll check them out (if I haven't already).

Thanks again for the coments.

Guerra norte · 01-08-2007, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Give me a list of 3 good ones that have:
- multiplayer up to 64 players
- vehicles including jeeps, APCs, tanks, aircraft, helicopters and such
- moderate to high fidelity realism

#1. Operation Flashpoint.

#2. Virtual Battlespace.

#3. Armed Assault.

I couldn't help myself.

Bohemian Interactive ROCKS!!!!

I'll shut up now

[R-DEV]bosco · 01-08-2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guerra norte

Forget trying to get a good gaming expirience on a euro server, there's hardly ANY teamwork on them, pluss nobody uses VoIP ( language barrier?)

I play in a VoIP squad almost every night on Thors Brigade.

Lean_Six_Sigma · 01-08-2007, 02:53 PM

I like egg's question of what game is preferable to PRM at this point. I loved OFP, I enjoyed RO etc. I think PRM has done a very good job at making vBF2 playable to those who enjoy more realistic games. I would love the jets to be much more realistic, but it's not going to happen due to the limits of the engine. (RWR, Laser Targeting, High level pinpoint bombing etc). I know that I have had some issues in the past (last night) geting spawn camped, but you pick another spawn location if possible and move on.

You can't mod the players, I was there when Counter Strike went from the college kids to the little kids. When VOIP came out and they couldn't hide the high voices... Can't mod the players, but you can make it fun.

If you find that one great game that we're all looking for PLEASE! let me know. For now, PRM is the best that's out there. I the next few years, who knows.

01-08-2007, 01:52 PM	#1
Rick_D Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1	Thoughts Hello, I don't normally sign up to forums just to complain, so this is a bit of a first for me. Some of you will probably flame or be offended (especially the devs, I know you work hard to bring something to the ungrateful masses for free, I apologise in advance). I usually play a lot of realistic (or so called) games, it's my favourite kind of gaming experience because you have to use your head as much as you have to use your hand-eye coordination. Through IRC I was encouraged to get PRM, I had to reinstall BF2 (which, frankly, I found to be a pretty weak game but at the very least it was a fun "run 'n' gun" style game where you had some occaisional teamplay). The last BF2 mod I played was PoE2 which prompted me to uninstall BF2 after I realised that there's simply not a lot you can do to the BF2 engine as far as modding goes to make it any different, not to mention the lag was unbearable at times. I give you this blarb just to let you know where I am coming from, I'm not some idiot who just wants to flame you for your hard work. However, after playing the game for some 3 days now (trying hard to find a good European server that doesn't kick/ban for swearing or accidental TK's - the skins are ridiculously similar, and saying "shit" seems to be worse than spawn camping or purposeful wounding in most server admins eyes..) I'm pretty disapointed. The game was built up by the person who encouraged me to download it to such a point that I found it hard to believe what he was saying was true - various reviews built up the community and the gameplay to make it sound like Red Orchestra meets OFP; I found the game to be exactly like BF2 but with 1 or 2 shot kills - the people playing in 2-man locked squads, squad leaders and members wandering off on their own, the camping of ridiculous spots, the outrageous (and I mean fkn unplayable) lag spikes and the arrogance of players towards newbies made the whole experience a total washout for me. Spawning in an open area and getting shot instantly by people camping on rooves looking into the spawn (seems to be a common theme in all the custom maps - by custom I mean the official PRM maps); lagging from one alleyway to another, across streets and getting shot by peopel camping the spawn exits - I dunno, nothing about the game seemed fun to me, and I'm used to some pretty annoying gameplay that can be found in 'realistic' games. And that brings me to realism, I'm not entirely sure what was realistic about PRM - the class system and the damage might be considered realistic but when put into practice they both seem to fail due to the way BF2 is designed and the very little control modders have to change things. I hated the gameplay, and I hated getting killed by people camping spawns, waiting 30 seconds (or more depending on how buggy the game wanted to be, and how lame the Squad Leaders decided to be - not getting healed so you can't spawn on them etc) only to get shot by the same guy again. The flying is unchanged, as is the driving, adding high damage and long respawn times just doesn't sell the realism thing to me, there's too much that is untouched that detracts from it. I won't be playing the mod again until I get hassled into playing it by my buddies on IRC, and I cerrtainly won't be eagerly awaiting the next version, it just seems that the whole experience has been very unpolished and a waste of time. No offence (I'm sure nobody cares anyway ;D), flame away, do what you will. This game has failed at realism
Rick_D Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1

01-08-2007, 02:34 PM	#6
Guerra norte Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,685	Forget trying to get a good gaming expirience on a euro server, there's hardly ANY teamwork on them, pluss nobody uses VoIP ( language barrier?) However, if you're lucky and come across the veteran players who do use VoIP I can guarantee you will have a pretty nice gaming expirience. I too think this mod fails at realism(doesn't mean the mod is bad though), but that's not why I play it, I play it for having a very teamwork/mature oriented community, but as I and others have said, it all depends on where and when you play.
Guerra norte Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 1,685
	Last edited by Guerra norte; 01-08-2007 at 02:51 PM..

01-08-2007, 02:37 PM	#7
[R-DEV]eggman PR Operations Lead Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 10,302	Good comments and taking the time to make them is much appreciated - tyvm. We can't "mod the players" so teamwork and bad attitudes are unfortunately in the hands of players. If you are really into high level of teamplay you could look into the PR Tournament. We have tried to create an environment where teamplay is rewarded. So, as an example, the spawn times are NOT 30s .. the spawn times are actually 0s. There is a 30s "unconscious" time that, unless you were headshotted, you can be revived by a Medic (using very unrealistic defibrillators that we left in because they really encourage and reward teamwork). Medics are an unlimited class so every squad should have one, stay close to them and you'll see less spawn time and more combat time. If you are getting spawn camped... yeah there are some maps that have some issues that seem to "promote" spawn camping. We hope we have addressed the map specific issues there with the next release. But we can't stop players from spawning into a base that is being spawn camped. You need to spawn somewhere else. The spawning mechanisms in BF2 are some of the last dimensions to the Infantry play that we have not overhauled. With the next release we're taking the first of two steps to overhaul the spawning mechanism. We're separating the concept of CP control and the ability to spawn at that CP. And putting the ability to spawn and where to spawn into the hands of players. So things should be much less predictable and should hopefully help minimise spawn camping. Another area that we've not really done much with is around the CP capture logic. What's in PR v0.4 is pretty much the "vanilla" flag cap logic. While we use the AAS game mode, which enforces a linear order of "supply line" connectivity to the CPs, the problems with the "vanilla" flag capture logic are even more accentuated with AAS. So we're rewritten the game mode and the flag cap logic. We hope the new logic will also help to minimize spawn camping. With the current logic, spawn camping IS basically part of capturing a CP and this is a bad thing. We'll see how it goes in v0.5 and make some adjustments from there. wrt flying and driving.. well .. not sure I understand what you are expecting there.. 4 wheels and a steering wheel... don't really know how much more we can do there. wrt vehicles like aircraft, helicopters and tanks... we're just now getting to paying some attention to the vehicular aspects of the mod so it will take a couple of releases to get that where we'd like it. To date we've been focused on the Infantry play. Lag issues are likely performance issues in the mod. We've made huge strides there for the next release .. which you don't care about DICE / EA had a team of about 30 people work on BF2 for about 3 years as their full time occupations. That's about 90 man years of labor to extend BF1942 (which had about the same amount of man years into it). We've had about 40 people .. on and off .. work on PR as a part time hobby for about 1.5 years .. so at 25% time dedication and an average of about 20 people, we've had about 7.5 man years of labor to get PR where it is today. Or about 8% of the time EA / DICE put into BF2. I think we've done a great job to move the mod further from BF2 in that sort of labor comparison and will continue to do so over the coming months. Let me flip it back atcha... since Project Reality is so disappointing .. can you give me examples of "first person, combined arms, realism and teamplay oriented multiplayer shooters" that you think we should look to for inspiration? Give me a list of 3 good ones that have: - multiplayer up to 64 players - vehicles including jeeps, APCs, tanks, aircraft, helicopters and such - moderate to high fidelity realism ... and I'll check them out (if I haven't already). Thanks again for the coments.
	Cheers! egg

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

01-08-2007, 01:55 PM	#2
DirtyHarry88 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Dundee Posts: 1,493	It is a game and it does a bloody good job at realism given the LIMITS of the ENGINE. I also don't see the problems with driving, maybe you're just shite

01-08-2007, 02:11 PM	#3
Downtown_two Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,291	You need to find the right players. One day I can be kursing the aboslute diabolical crap I see in games and it makes me hate it, then hours later I can jump into a game with 5 guys/girls on VOIP,they work as a team and communicate and it becomes the best thing I've ever experienced on a computer.
	http://www.darkside-film.com/ "Cover me, I'm eating Pasta"

01-08-2007, 02:11 PM	#4
[R-DEV]bosco PR Developer Join Date: Dec 2006 Germany Location: K - Town Posts: 11,117	You can only mod the game, not the players. If you want to have fun, play late and join a VoIP squad. Or join the PR Tournament, teamplay guaranteed.

01-08-2007, 02:21 PM	#5
Mekstizzle Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: London, England Posts: 887	Don't agree with much of your post but I can see where you're coming from. I agree with the Rooftop campers, it's ridiculous ....the amount of roofs accessable in PR is way over the top. Might aswell call it Battlefield 2: Spiderman. It's annoying when you're having some good action on the ground, using cover and whatnot. Especially Muttrah, it would be a much more free-flowing map if it didn't have every single roof accesable by ladder.

01-08-2007, 02:53 PM	#10
Lean_Six_Sigma Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Vancouver WA Posts: 45	I like egg's question of what game is preferable to PRM at this point. I loved OFP, I enjoyed RO etc. I think PRM has done a very good job at making vBF2 playable to those who enjoy more realistic games. I would love the jets to be much more realistic, but it's not going to happen due to the limits of the engine. (RWR, Laser Targeting, High level pinpoint bombing etc). I know that I have had some issues in the past (last night) geting spawn camped, but you pick another spawn location if possible and move on. You can't mod the players, I was there when Counter Strike went from the college kids to the little kids. When VOIP came out and they couldn't hide the high voices... Can't mod the players, but you can make it fun. If you find that one great game that we're all looking for PLEASE! let me know. For now, PRM is the best that's out there. I the next few years, who knows.

Sponsored Links

Sponsored Links