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Old 12-05-2009, 12:05 AM   #51
Clypp

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Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

I prefer the RP way as well. PR's greatest strength is teamwork and teamwork happens at the squad level. Any reason that makes the squad act unnaturally, such as protecting the SL over completing the objective is unrealistic and hurts the fun aspect.
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Old 12-05-2009, 01:33 AM   #52
CAS_117
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Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

Removing rally points isn't going to ruin anything. The problem is that they've been in so long that so many things are based around them that its like removing a cast off of a person with a broken leg; It's going to be wobbly until certain things are done.

All of the kits, spawntimes, flags etc are really made for rally points. Most maps do not have the transport vehicles required to maintain the kind of troop strength that you could have with rally points. Basically, IFVs and APC's have become even more dangerous, because their best use is picking off exposed infantry crossing open ground. I've played on the test servers for a number of hours and the biggest threat at the moment is APC's. After that its single riflemen in cover. Because there is no spawn, the payoff for killing squads of troops is much higher, because when they are dead, they're dead. What I am seeing more of is troops dispersing and obviously being more careful.

00SoldierofFortune00, you have a point that removing rally points is going to minimize the benefits of being in a squad. I've played as a lone wolf in PR and tbh the payoff isn't bad for the effort put in. Let me explain:

Tactical Benefits to "Lone-Wolfing":
  • The enemy is always a lot more visible than you are; You will practically always get the first shot.
  • It is a lot easier to maneuver one or two people than with 6 that you've never met.

Psychological Benefits:
  • If you die, it is mostly your fault.
  • Its not really a fair fight, so if you fail, so what. If you succeed then you "must be really good". (This isn't really true. Ingame the odds favor the lone wolf because of the factors listed above).

Strategic Benefits:
  • One scoped rifleman is worth exactly one ticket, but can slow down or kill an entire squad. If you kill two soldiers, you are ultimately helping your team win. And more often than not, I can take out a full squad if they are bunched up. Settle times help quite a bit.

How Rally Points Affect Lone Wolfers (Pros):
  • As I said the main disadvantage to lone wolfing comes down to numbers. Removing rally points will ultimately cut the number of soldiers that you can face. This also means that the amount of damage a single soldier can do to a full squad is multiplied by the number of times that squad would respawn in a given engagement.

How Rally Points Affect Lone Wolfers (Cons):
  • Squads will be a lot less visible. Ironically, this means that single troops are going to fight squads a lot more like they would fight other lone wolfers.

So ultimately this is going to make the risks for lone wolfing less, the execution easier because of smaller numbers, but a bit harder because the pressure to move and assault is going to be less, making people more cautious. This removes one of the main advantages of lone wolfing, "low visibility". So if squads are more cautious it would probably remove one of the main reasons why people lone wolf. The payoff for lone wolfing will be much bigger now, because if a squad is taken out... well they aren't coming back for awhile.
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Old 12-05-2009, 01:51 AM   #53
Hunt3r
Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

My two cents regarding the matter is that it won't. What is needed to prevent the shock of the removal of RPs is to keep log trucks, and trans helos to be on every map. One, or the other, or both.

That's all that's needed. After that there isn't much to be done beyond making the supply crates a bit grippier so they don't do something annoying like sliding away, to give away your position.
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Old 12-05-2009, 02:49 AM   #54
Threedroogs
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Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

the changes will make lone wolfing easier and more effective, but it will also make squad teamwork more important. in the beta (especially with no RP spawn at all), the squad is everything. i wanted to be in visual contact with at least a few of my squadmates at all times, with all six of us within 50 or so meters. successfully attacking an objective takes a serious amount of teamwork on the squad level. attacking is very hard without the ability to hide an RP a few hundred meters from the fight. when someone was shot, the entire mission shifted to securing the downed infantryman and reviving him. i view all these things as improvements. my guess is that if there's more lone wolfing, it will happen around the FOs most of the time. any added defense is okay in my book.

once part 2 and 3 reintroduced the RPs, the action got a little worse because the SL is encouraged to avoid the fight, especially when things have gone wrong for the squad. i hate having the choice of retreating 150m with one squadmate to set a quick rally. i'd rather be forced to fight it out. i think that's more fun for everyone involved. i thought the game was much more interesting when we had to secure the downed squadmates at all costs, and when it wasnt possible to get to them it felt like a big sacrifice. i am really hoping the devs decide to remove the RP spawn completely and then tweak the transport vehicle spawn times and a few other things (or give all squads the ability to request transport, perhaps on a 10 minute timer if the vehicle is destroyed).

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Old 12-05-2009, 02:57 AM   #55
Kim Jong ill

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Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

I think the idea that this is to stop RP's acting as a siege engine is an absolute cop out on behalf of any potential defenders, if you plan to just sit there after a repulsed attack with your thumb up your arse then you deserve to lose. Rather then just sitting there like a stunned mullet how about you dedicate a portion of your force to tracking down the attackers and overrunning their rally, they can't effectively defend a rally if they've just spawned (Or waiting to spawn) and you're counter attacking quickly.

This seems to me a massive shift of responsibility away from defending forces and instead putting it on the shoulders of those attacking, which isn't right.

As the OP stated this is going to kill effective flanking actions, all it takes is your medic to be killed and/or pinned down and your squad will be mince meat and sent back to a FOB god knows how far away.
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Old 12-05-2009, 02:57 AM   #56
[R-DEV]Rudd
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Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

I don't know about lone wolfers.

Lone wolfers tend to have great tactics for themselves, they walk from cover to cover etc, any sound is going to be the sound of an enemy etc.

But too often I see squads just walking through the forest in as if going to a picnic, if they too were walking from cover to cover, treating each rock as a potential hiding place for an enemy they would be fine, their numbers give them a false sense of security, whereas lonewolfing gives you a keen sense of your mortality.

But if a squad is actually doing what its supposed to be doing, then lonewolfers don't have a chance.
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Old 12-05-2009, 03:04 AM   #57
mat552

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Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by [R-MOD]crazy11 View Post
Hmm let me think what happened when PR removed squad leader spawning, people said it would destroy PR.

Look at it now.
PR as it was with the SL spawn is dead. It's a completely different game. (Same with minimaps, and all the other major changes. I still miss my infantry minimap, and I still get lost in cities.)

This change could be successful, but there are arguably no maps currently released that are playable by the general audience without rally points. Every single map in PR right now was designed after the rally points were introduced, and it clearly shows.

(Congratulations, the test is a success on servers that have a reputation for being the best of the best, with long standing traditions of teamwork and realistic intentions. The true test is how it functions on the wastes, in the wild.)

Edit, on lonewolfing. It's better in the beta than it has ever been before. A single rifleman, waiting for just the right moment, can set a squad, and thus a part of the blob, back. Everyone can be as 1337 as a sniper, without the kit. I love being that rifleman, especially on muttrah, I feel like a ninja.

Players might be hardcoded, but that sure doesn't seem to stop anybody from trying.

Any gamemode in which one team is guaranteed victory by not spawning is a bad gamemode, fix Insurgency.
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Old 12-05-2009, 03:43 AM   #58
Hunt3r
Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

Seems like it encourages lone-wolfing, which means that removal of RPs would basically mean that either there'd be more teamwork or more lone-wolfing, to be captain obvious.

We need to run more servers with RP changes before we can really establish anything.
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Old 12-05-2009, 08:20 AM   #59
RHYS4190

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Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

people should read this guy's entire post, It long, but he raises some interesting issues. And he hit's the nail on the head in the regard to lone wolfing, We are more likely going to see a increase then a decrease and it a problem that not going to go away.

But true full the dev's think that by removing or nerfing the rally's in going to improve PR and make things better, i don't think so, I think PR has out grown the BF2 engine.

And it needs to be redesigned to PR specifications
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Old 12-05-2009, 08:28 AM   #60
Jevski

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Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

I agree with soldier, trying the beta on specific servers only works well on those servers.
They do not give a good picture of the general playerbase of PR.

As an experiment the base is too small, it does not give a good picture. Like flipping a coin twice and then say it lands "heads" 100% of the time.

I do like the new system, I just dont think its usuable on public games. Scrims and such yes.

Ive tried playing on servers where the base wasnt the usual up to standard, guess what, no one except the usual 1 or 2 players build firebases. Asking for help or anything did not help in any way. . And being the only SL that does anything at all can be very stressful.

And yes, play on another server, but that does not help PR If all the good and experienced players are on 2 or 3 full servers, how will the beginners learn?

As I have stated before in another thread, removing the RP will remove any independence from the rest of the team in case they dont teamwork. Not all server have the same rules, on some its not mandatory to follow Sl or Co's order.

As many may say Rp's are not realistic, well of course they arent. This is still a game. And as such we must also remember to keep the playability alive. How many would play PR, if you had 1 life?
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