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Old 12-22-2009, 03:33 PM   #171
rrrrrkkkkk
Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

I'm going to try to be as sincere here as possible to both the supports of the new changes and the DEVs.


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Old 12-22-2009, 04:43 PM   #172
Doedel

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Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

Two points that really need to be realized. The first is directed at players, the second at the devs.

1) Every time a major change is made to a game, mod or whatever, the majority of the gaming population naturally and invariably feels it is a horrible decision that will ruin the game and they will never play it ever again, and that there is some "set way" the game should be and that changing that, or anything, amounts to a betrayal. Newsflash: PR is a mod of BF2. I've played PR since the very first release of PRMM (remember that?!). Over the years there were good changes and bad. Generally I enjoyed PR more in its versions of about 1-2 years ago, and believe me a LOT has changed. By saying "this will ruin it, I will never play again" you're either a) a moron/hypocrite, because you've likely played earlier versions of PR that were a hell of a lot different and you played it then and still play it now; b) you picked up PR only in its current state and haven't been playing it for very long, in which face you're a noob and can eff off.

2) Non-commercial developers seriously need to learn how to "let go". Unlike commercial developments which have more-or-less strict release timetables, impatient hawkish publishers and etc, indy mod/dev projects like PR pretty much have no timetable whatsoever, and therefore no end. And for many developers, work on a project becomes a part of their life, and they really don't know what to do with themselves and their free time when something is "done". As a result, you have a team of developers (often individuals will stop and break off into other areas while new guys are brought in) who after awhile are creating a game simply to create. They have no real image of how a final product will look, no preliminary date set for when they will stop working and let history take its course, and an underlying urge to be constantly creating new content or modding old content if only to avoid being labeled as stagnant. And to make everything worse, through the very popular system of repeated beta-releasing (as PR is currently in v0.87, technically it is still a beta) developers are inundated with the often completely uneducated ramblings of their early playerbase, guilt-tripping them with their incessant whining into constantly changing things. Commercial developers don't have this issue; the only time a commercial product gets into the hands of a non-developers is during its QA stages, and generally QAs don't make subjective issue reports about "I think the RPG is a bit too weak" -- and as a paid employee they can just be fired for being dunces. I was (and still am) a developer on a project that has been in the works since 2001 and it took me years and years to finally realize that I had ended up working on this project for no other reason than to work on this project. That was what I did, and it took a lot of effort to force myself to stop doing it, to accept that the game I helped design was never going to satisfy everyone, and that I'd already put a hell of a lot of time into it, and there was little point in spending another few years trying to "fix" everything and "add more", and that I should just leave it as is and let people play it if they want or don't if they don't want, and just close that chapter of my life.

All of this combines into what we see before us: a development team making abrupt, sometimes uncalled for changes out of their assumed need to satisfy a tumultuous playerbase and constantly create new content and change old content because they feel it's the only way they can keep people's interest and keep from becoming stagnant and abandoned; and whiny, short-sighted players who gawk and moan at every change as if it was their god-damned creation being unfairly tampered with.

TL;DR

Players: Stop your whining, we all know you'll keep playing PR, and if you don't, then you didn't matter anyway.

Devs: Stop obsessing over the need to continue development to repeatedly reinvigorate your project and settle on a damned final release and move on.
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Old 12-22-2009, 05:00 PM   #173
snooggums
Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doedel View Post
Devs: Stop obsessing over the need to continue development to repeatedly reinvigorate your project and settle on a damned final release and move on.
Most of the changes are attempts to fit an overall goal. In the case of rallies they have been reduced in quantity over time because they are not realistic, and were kept out of necessity or added as attempts to work around the limitations.

Flag spawns and squad leader spawns were removed for play reasons.
Rallies were actually added to replace the removal of flag and SL spawns. Kind of funny you are complaining that they are removing something they added.
Vehicle spawns were removed because people were parking vehicles in ditches to spawn from like a mobile flag spawn.
The most recent beta removed rallies completely on one version, but it hurt squad cohesion.

There is an ultimate goal for PR spawning (this is not the official one, but the apparent overall goal). It involves requiring coordination for forces to advance and attempts to avoid spawning in view of the enemy. That is why spawns get overrun, why one of the beta versions removed the completely and why maps have some kind of transport to the front lines. they are attempting to have some kind of realistic behavior by players instead of gaming the system as much as possible. The last beta kept rallies as single use but resuppliable items so that squad cohesion could be kept without allowing hidden places for players to magically come from behind enemy lines repeatedly.

It isn't making changes for the sake of making changes. It is often being able to implement something they wanted to do previously.

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Old 12-22-2009, 05:56 PM   #174
RAZAEREO
Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

SoldierofFortune

you've written more in this post than I have in my entire life lol...
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:43 PM   #175
00SoldierofFortune00

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Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doedel View Post
Two points that really need to be realized. The first is directed at players, the second at the devs.

1) Every time a major change is made to a game, mod or whatever, the majority of the gaming population naturally and invariably feels it is a horrible decision that will ruin the game and they will never play it ever again, and that there is some "set way" the game should be and that changing that, or anything, amounts to a betrayal. Newsflash: PR is a mod of BF2. I've played PR since the very first release of PRMM (remember that?!). Over the years there were good changes and bad. Generally I enjoyed PR more in its versions of about 1-2 years ago, and believe me a LOT has changed. By saying "this will ruin it, I will never play again" you're either a) a moron/hypocrite, because you've likely played earlier versions of PR that were a hell of a lot different and you played it then and still play it now; b) you picked up PR only in its current state and haven't been playing it for very long, in which face you're a noob and can eff off.
So I guess everyone that hates the game is a noob then right? Wrong, most of us who are against this change have been playing from the beginning and have witnessed the good and bad changes to the game. Before you start calling us "noobs", have you been through all the patches?

I think you have it a little wrong. Not everyone is against every change. I've been for and against changes, but I am against major changes which effect parts of the game that are already established and hold the game together. For example, I think if you took out the minimap completely, it would be terrible for this game because every player would be completely blind. The supporters, like you are with this Beta change, will say "well, its to make it more realistic or its for the better" or something like that. But the fact is, the minimap is a fundamental part of this game which makes up for a lack of situational awareness that the player naturally does not have in a game. The RP I argue, is the same way. Its a way to keep squads together and allow them to move with each other 90% of the time because in most instances, players will not naturally spawn with their squad (for a number of reasons).

And lets face it, the RPs were probably the best thing to happen to this game. The FOBs improved on it, but they weren't revolutionary like the RPs have been. The only problem with RPs came when they only required 1 player to place in the last patch. The RPs are basically like the SL spawn, except less gamey and require you to place them correctly. Its a system that works because it is based on a system that vanilla BF2 already built (SL spawn). Making FOBs the only spawn would be like trying to implement squads in Counterstrike. That engine wasn't really designed for that just like the BF2 engine wasn't built around the "1 life system" that would essentially come from the Beta.




Quote:
Originally Posted by RAZAEREO View Post
SoldierofFortune

you've written more in this post than I have in my entire life lol...
You've never been to college or high school yet lol? Thanks though.

"Push the Envelope, Watch It Bend"

Tool ~ Lateralus
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Old 12-23-2009, 01:29 AM   #176
chuckMFd

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Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

I don't see why gameplay should be sacrificed in this situation. Spawning is part of the game so occasionally you will see someone spawn, why fight it? Removing rally points just so you don't see people spawn as much is not a good enough reason. Rally points make this game more fun and help promote teamwork.

Maybe Forward Outposts and other buildables should require less shoveling so it's not as much of a time burden. That way people can do more FPSing; isn't that what this game is based on? And how can it be that it takes about fifty shovels to build, but one knife stab takes the whole thing down???


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PR KICKS ASS
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Old 12-23-2009, 02:42 AM   #177
bloodthirsty_viking
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Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

ok, i read most of the first page, and these are my thoughts.

i do think this will destroy pr.i mean yes, its unrealistic to spawn on bags, but spawning on bags FORCE teamplay, not just squad play if you want to win,
example

You are squad leader, and your set up in a line / arrowhead shape to defend a flag. You have your rally back a little, and a fb close by. it is just your squad, with w/e assets inf could have. (50 mg nest, at, so on) and there is an e squad. all they have is a rallypoint hidden out in the fields.

They try and attack you, you win, not to bad, one casualty, must respawn at firebase, the e squad is regruping out of sight, and your still holding, but you inform your team about the engament. Now you get hit a second time, they have a ar behind a tree, and they know your aprox location know, now they attack and kill 3 of you, before they retreat to regrup, but they leave there ar to pin you down.

You tell your team about this, and ask a squad to come and flank them, help take them down, and at the same time, you send out a 2-3 man recon team from those who died to go look for the eneme (refered to as E for the rest of the story) squad, you find there rally point, and take it out, and the battle ends.

a few minutes later, the same squad comes up from a diffrent angle now, set up a rally point near the old location, and a fob on the other side. they also have reinforcements from one apc.

You still belive that they are attacking from the same side, but really, they post there apc near the rally to pin you down, and they attack, you kill them, losing 3 peaple agian, but you also lose your firebase.
Now you have the oppertunity to place your squad in a better hiding spot (atleast those 3) and hold the flag untill reinforcments can make it to you. If you did not have that, you would have to walk back from main base, making the game WAY to slow.
the e would take the flag, and would have the oppertunity to win the game fast, becuase your team who was fighting at a diffrent flag doing a simmaler operation would have to turn arround to try to caputre the point you recently lost, while the e squad that attacked you keeps moving, awith more e reinforcements, while they also leave one squad to defend the flag, from your team comming from any direction.

They will use your own hmg nests for cover, and will just use the envirnment as needed. without rally points, you could not have these intense battles of that everybody loves having in pr without them. they are your last lifeline, when you die, you dont want to spawn in an open fortified position thats 10 minutes from teh fighting, you want to spawn out 1 minute away, where you can get to cover and help save the rest of your squad as you try to hold out the attackers.

i feel, with the remove of rally points, the mod will become like some of the other mods like poe.. still played, but not very much anymore.


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Old 12-23-2009, 01:08 PM   #178
00SoldierofFortune00

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Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckMFd View Post
I don't see why gameplay should be sacrificed in this situation. Spawning is part of the game so occasionally you will see someone spawn, why fight it? Removing rally points just so you don't see people spawn as much is not a good enough reason. Rally points make this game more fun and help promote teamwork.

Maybe Forward Outposts and other buildables should require less shoveling so it's not as much of a time burden. That way people can do more FPSing; isn't that what this game is based on? And how can it be that it takes about fifty shovels to build, but one knife stab takes the whole thing down???
I agree. The only way I could see FOBs replacing RPs is if they were allowed to be placed in buildings so they wouldn't be more noticable and weren't overrun so easily, but even that would pose problems. Right now and even in the Beta, it takes way too much to build a FOB and way too little to take it out.

"Push the Envelope, Watch It Bend"

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Old 12-23-2009, 02:17 PM   #179
Colonial-Marine
Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

I'm not going to lie, I don't play that much PR and would like to see several things changed (less recoil on intermediate caliber assault rifles for example), but this just seems plain stupid to me.

Why fix what isn't broken? I see FOBs being deployed in the games I do play so I don't buy the "they aren't being used enough" argument.
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Old 12-23-2009, 02:21 PM   #180
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Default Re: Who Else Thinks that the RP Changes (being beta tested) will Destroy PR?

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Make Norway OPFOR! NAO!

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