Lock-on Missiles (AA & Jets)

[[R-DEV]Eddie Baker]

The M163 PIVADS and its towed counterpart, the M167, have not been in US service for quite a while. The Israelis still use them, but their versions are also fitted with Stinger missiles. The only towed, ground-mounted anti-aircraft cannon in US service (and I believe the UK have purchased or leased a couple of them) is the C-RAM LPWS (land-based Phalanx). However, it is radar controlled; not sure if it even has an operator controlled, optical tracking mode.

There is an anti-aircraft ground mount for the M2HB, the M63, but I have never heard of it being adopted by the UK, or even used by the US since Vietnam.

The bottom line is that manually tracked/operated anti-aircraft guns or machine-guns (towed or self-propelled) just aren't there for some states.

No HUDS on the man-portable, heat-seeking missiles can be done, since that is realistic, however, some vehicles do have them.

[Celestial1]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Eddie Baker

No HUDS on the man-portable, heat-seeking missiles can be done, since that is realistic, however, some vehicles do have them.

Do we know how accurate these HUDs are in game versus their counterparts (not in terms of how the HUD is layed out, but how it displays that it is locked on and the like)?

From my post, about AA with HUD (AAVs, stationary AA, wherever it makes sense to be there)

Originally Posted by Celestial1

And perhaps with AA that does have a HUD to indicate locks, that all non-locked targets would have no symbol surrounding them...You get a lock-on symbol over the aircraft (just like when you lock on now) but all the flares and other targets on screen will remain 'invisible' unless they are locked directly.

Also, perhaps slightly smaller 'lock' areas on weaponry would be acceptable. Instead of the entire circle being able to lock onto the target, perhaps a smaller circle near the center would initiate the lock, and the outer circle would be the limits of the lock being maintained (this way, it would take a bit of aiming and keeping aim on the target to lock, but then after the lock has been established there is a bit of leniency in holding the lock, as it now has the target identified among other elements in the air).


I'm not sure how realistic most of this is, seeing as I've never been in the military or experienced the use of Anti-Air weaponry first hand, but I think it may help a bit with gameplay.

[Alex6714]

I think, but I don´t fully know, the the most realistic way for basic manpads would be no visual lock indication whatsoever, just point, wait then when locked "bzzzzzzzz".

[mat552]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Eddie Baker

The M163 PIVADS and its towed counterpart, the M167, have not been in US service for quite a while. The Israelis still use them, but their versions are also fitted with Stinger missiles. The only towed, ground-mounted anti-aircraft cannon in US service (and I believe the UK have purchased or leased a couple of them) is the C-RAM LPWS (land-based Phalanx). However, it is radar controlled; not sure if it even has an operator controlled, optical tracking mode.

I smell a commander deployable asset perhaps?

[Kruder]

Well,the only aspect worth ranting about AAs and their missiles are the impact they make on dogfights i guess.Because there isnt any.For that i'd propose a longer lock on time only for air vs. air,but i guess it is either hardcoded or wont even be read in this thread.

Other than that,if u keep moving and popping flares in danger zone you wont get killed most of the time,if u want to hover/fly low and spot targets for yourself(or yourselves) that'll lead to trouble.

Project reality tournament,i believe,is the best experience you can get from PR and observe the limitations/capabilities of the mod or engine or any equipment.In tournament, AA's have absolutely no efffect on AC except on attack choppers ONLY in quinling and Kashan 32.

That is with the fact that,there is always a number of AAs operated within the area at all times,by both teams in PRT.In pub game,you wont even have that dense cloud of AA to fight against with,there'll be only one or two most of the time.So rework your strategies and be a little bit more patient in the cockpit and use those flares before the lock tone,and dont hesitate to land just for flares...

[SuperTimo]

What should be differnt is the ability to get lock on, not the ability to evade the lock on.

In real life if you were to get locked on by a SAM your pretty much F***ed however in real life getting lock on is nowhere near as easy as it is in PR. IRL aircraft will either be flying a lot higher than in pr or nap of the earth, when flying nap of the earth the short time window for lock on to be achived is there, and at high altitude your obviously going to have a harder time locking on, combine that with things like electronic jamming and obviously flares and chaff and you can see there is a lot more to be locked on.

Consider that most/all modern combat aircraft will have a threat warning panel showing where radar signals are coming. This was represented in earlier versions of PR but removed since you don't get any warning with heat seeking missiles such as the AIM-9. However you would receive warning from missiles like the AIM-120.

For a compromise i think that the amount of time needed to lock on should be doubled, for all AA weapons. At the moment the insta lock nature makes dog fights non exsitant/frustriating with the uber maneuverable sidewinders. And that someone in an AAV just needs to look at the jet and they have lock (despite hitman 2.5s excessive bragging of how he shot me down in an avenger once).

I think that a longer lock on time would represent that it is harder to get a lock IRL but still keep it that once you are locked on you will have a hard time evading. Such a system will keep alive pilots that fly low well, or play it safe by staying high.

a problem i have is that in jets you don't even have to wait for a lock to fire a missile for it to hit, just fly behind them and fire and they are likely to be destroyed, with a 0.5second warning at best, such would totally negate what i said above.

[Celestial1]

Originally Posted by SuperTimo

For a compromise i think that the amount of time needed to lock on should be doubled, for all AA weapons. At the moment the insta lock nature makes dog fights non exsitant/frustriating with the uber maneuverable sidewinders. And that someone in an AAV just needs to look at the jet and they have lock (despite hitman 2.5s excessive bragging of how he shot me down in an avenger once).

I think that a longer lock on time would represent that it is harder to get a lock IRL but still keep it that once you are locked on you will have a hard time evading. Such a system will keep alive pilots that fly low well, or play it safe by staying high.

Good point.

However, as it is currently I think it would cause issues for ground AA trying to target jets, especially when the pilot only dips out of the clouds to fire an AGM, then abruptly pulls up.

Now, to counter this, AA missiles could also have a longer lock range of about 1500m (and, of course, everything that can be locked would be able to be killed if countermeasures etc were not employed).

If this range makes them a little too overpowered (being able to lock onto anything within 1500m is a big thing, as it is), then my suggestion of removing HUD for MANPADS launchers, and reducing HUD for AA weaponry has HUDs in real life to, in game, only show a lock symbol on targets it is actually locked onto, and not show 'lockboxes' for the other targets or flares on screen.

This would make it so that the AA takes twice the time to lock, but has more time to react after they actually spot the jet (it would be hard to lock before the jet was in visual view, but keeping the lock onto him after he is out of view would be extremely easy with HUD-enabled AA weapons, and somewhat easy with MANPADS).

How do lock-notification systems in jets work IRL? Do they start when the missile is launched, or when the AA has locked on, before launching? Perhaps this could also be realistically reflected in-game, if the missiles (or certain missiles) only give off warnings when the missile is fired.

Perhaps with these changes, locking could be just as easily stopped, whereas after the aircraft was locked on to, it would have a harder time losing lock (perhaps losing lock would require dropping x amount of flares... dropping 2 flares as opposed to 1 when a missile is already in flight could be easier said than done...).

[Alex6714]

Depends on the missile. Heat seeking or IR generally can only be detected after launch I think, whereas laser and radar guided can be detected before launch. Such creating the situation where an F16 that was shot down by a missile fired dumb and guided by radar the last few seconds so that the F16 couldn´t detect the launcher and destroy it before it could launch.

[Engineer]

Originally Posted by Alex6714

I think, but I don´t fully know, the the most realistic way for basic manpads would be no visual lock indication whatsoever, just point, wait then when locked "bzzzzzzzz".

MANPAD's do have 'HUD's, seen and used one with my naked eyes. But they don't have some magical seeker which wanders around the scenery searching for heat signature.

There is one circle which is used for target search, after you get a lock the HUD lightens an other circle on your 'screen'. This circle is calculated to be the best intercept course towards target. Then you put the target you are following inside this circle, and launch. All this can be done in less than 5 seconds.

[[R-DEV]DankE_SPB]

Originally Posted by Engineer

MANPAD's do have 'HUD's. But they don't have some magical seeker which wanders around the scenery searching for heat signature.

There is one circle which is used for target search, after you get a lock the HUD lightens an other circle on your screen. This circle is calculated to be the best intercept course towards target. Then you put the target you are following inside this circle, and launch. All this can be done less than 5 seconds.

whats up with MANPAD pre-launch setup? for Igla/Strela its about 12-15 seconds, but dont they use coolant for IR seeker in missile? so if you tried to lock but didnt succeed can you "re-use" it, or you need to refill coolant?