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PR:BF2 General Discussion General discussion of the Project Reality: BF2 modification.

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Old 04-15-2009, 08:36 PM   #51
Drav
Retired PR Developer
Supporting Member
Default Re: @ CAS - Revive discussion (immature comments will be removed)

My opinion:

Revives must stay, critical to teamwork and as Fuzz says, immersiveness. Revives build dependencies between squad members, you remember the guys who save your ass, they give you the ability to stay with your squad in the action zone, a second chance if you like. All the examples Fuzz mention I agree with, especially arma, as examples of how games with no revives seem to feature less teamwork between strangers. Arma 2 is featuring revives and healing for this very reason I believe.

I think something needs to be done to prevent multiple revives, insta-revives and introduce a bit more death into the situation, but I think the action itself is very important to have in the game.
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Old 04-15-2009, 08:39 PM   #52
CallMeSnowflake

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Default Re: @ CAS - Revive discussion (immature comments will be removed)

Jonny summed up an approach that I think we all need to consider more carefully. This, to me, seems like the most realistic and teamwork-favoring solution.

When people are injured, and bleed out, they can be revived.

When people are shot and die immediately (shot to death) then they can't be revived.

Additionally, I would argue that people should only be able to die from bleeding out once, then they die and must respawn.

This adds yet another layer of realism (someone shot once and bleeding can be healed by medics in real life, someone who takes numerous rounds from an automatic weapon and dies...dies), and it also encourages teamwork. If a medic takes care of someone who is bleeding, then their squad (and as a result, the whole team) will be rewarded.

Not exactly related to the discussion, but important: removing rallies increases the importance on FB's, encourages tactical and teamwork oriented behavior.

This seems like it oughta satisfy both parties...CAS_117 and fuzzhead, do you like this idea?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny View Post
I can see how being able to revive helps, but I can also see the 'gamey' side of it. There are situations where it IS a good thing to have, and situations where it is very bad. IMO there is a clear line to be drawn between the two.

So I propose this system:

When injured, you bleed. Just like now. Same speed, same effects.

When you 'die' due to bleeding, you lay there with your kit for up to 5 mins with the option of giving up. Just like now, but the kits stay longer.

The difference is here:
When you die due to being shot/grenaded/blown up/run over you 'die' in a way that you cannot be revived from. You are really dead, not just injured.

Hopefully its similar to whats coming next release.

You can fall off as many cliffs as you want still be revived (if they weren't too high), but the moment you are killed by being hurt by the enemy, you are out for good. If you get shot and escape, you will survive. If you get shot to death, you will have to respawn. If you injure, but dont kill the enemy, they can be revived. If you shoot/nade/crush someone to death, they will not get back up.

Removing the rally point spawn here will help a lot.
As will adding a system to heal from the rally so long as there are no enemy trops nearby.
If you rush at the enemy, and get shot to death, you will have to spawn far back at the FO. If you sneak up and attack, and subsequently break contact, you can be healed (!!! or revived if you bleed out !!!).

This will effect squad cohesion because the more the squad is willing to break contact, the longer the squad will live for & the more they are likely to be revivable. If you have a long living squad you can keep them together. Sure, you could run in and attack, but doing so will mean you are guaranteed to spawn at the FO rather than be revived. Reinforcements behind you cannot revive a soldier who has been shot to death, even if they do control the area. The more willing you are to fall back, the more easily it will be for reinforcements to get you back up even if you are over-run. It plays right into the hands of those who play cautiously and employ contact drills.

This would mean you have to keep the long spawn time for everyone, though. 30 secs is probably enough if there is a massive penalty which is proportional to the points you have gained so far when you die. Halving your total score on every death would work well IMO, without being too hard to code. It tends to twice the average number of points you gain per life, with a large number of deaths.
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:01 PM   #53
Titan
Default Re: @ CAS - Revive discussion (immature comments will be removed)

I would like to keep the revive, but if you are revived and get schot again within 3 (or 5) min you are Dead... real good reason to fall back, isnt it?

... and why not connect the SL with his rally, if he dies the rally disapears... would make the Officer an high priority target again.

oh and making the Medic a requestable Kit (6 kits 5min respawn like the AR) would help too, doesnt it?
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Old 04-15-2009, 09:42 PM   #54
TF6049

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Default Re: @ CAS - Revive discussion (immature comments will be removed)

Quote:
Originally Posted by General_J0k3r View Post
@alex: if you have the current damage settings there's a good chance you'll die/get critically wounded pretty quickly. if you remove the revive everyone who gets shot will have to walk from rally/fb. there goes squad cohesion. atm it's kinda doable to keep a squad together. would be near impossible on pubs without the revive (unless you get SL spawning back which I think will never happen )
Logistics. Either keep reviving out or make it a much more profitable job, as nobody ever seems to do it.

"Make sure that: Suppression effect works when bullets hit penetrable metal feces too"

A funny typo by Sgt. Smeg
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Old 04-16-2009, 02:42 AM   #55
ChiefRyza

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Default Re: @ CAS - Revive discussion (immature comments will be removed)

I agree the medic/revive system is key to holding a squad together; you run away, you will most likely not be coming back if something goes wrong.

On the other hand, the revive system is too effective. It needs to have several penalties to stop it being abused and as I posted in another thread, PR is slowly starting to resemble Vanilla again with the whole medic spam thing.

1. As somebody else suggested earlier, if your medic goes down, all you have to do is pick up his kit and get back to work. This has to go, just make the medic kit disappear very quickly compared to the other kits. Surely this is doable?

2. You can only be revived once every 5 minutes. Get shot after you've been revived within this time and your down for the count; I really don't see why in a game representing reality can have soldiers take waves of bullets and just get shot up with adrenaline (not sure whats in the epipens :P) and be on their merry way.
Basically, a 40 second respawn when you die outright, and you still get the 2 or 3 minutes down wounded after being shot. With this, you still rely on your medic, but you also aren't invincible anymore.

3. One medic per squad. No more getting loads of medics jumping around everywhere yelling "clear" (Remind you of anything?).

4. The medic also can't heal himself with the medic bag anymore, but has to use his patches. Quite silly seeing as medics outlive everyone on the battlefield now. This would solve mounds of problems.

5. *Might not be possible* Medic has a delayed time to pull out his weapon compared to other classes. If he is healing someone, he shouldn't be able to whip out his rifle and down the enemy within a second.

I can't think of anymore at the moment but these are some possible fixes that wouldn't have to remove the revive system but refine it so it is a little more balanced and promotes more teamwork than it does now.



Current project: Operation Tempest
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Old 04-16-2009, 05:22 AM   #56
Human_001

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Default Re: @ CAS - Revive discussion (immature comments will be removed)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charity Case View Post
We basically already have a no-revive/no-medic mode: playing as Iraqi insurgents. And from what I've seen, there's significantly less teamwork and significantly more lone-wolf behavior. The funny thing is, when my squad manages to steal a couple blufor medic kits, we become much more cohesive.

I've had this whole death/revive/teamwork discussion a couple of times before. And, for me, it all comes down to how you want to influence player behavior: with a carrot or with a stick. You can either punish players for not working together, or you can reward them for helping each other.

I like carrots.

I think Insurgents don't play as team because they don't have rally point system.
I see alot of organized Insurgent side players When I play.

Not punish or reward player to control players behavior. As long as game is free and open to play for anyone many kinds of players will come to play this mod.

I think it is more about giving players an environment to work with, that is capable of realistic combat using realistic simulation of weapons wound effect etc. And teamwork will follow, because player who coordinates will win against uncoordinated.

But as some people say, in more realistic based game like ArmA peoples has less teamwork because they are not rewarded to play as team. That is not a Teamwork. That is Arcade Teamwork that only looks like teamwork. Teamwork is when you coordinate attack and execute plan as group to gain advantage against enemy. I feel people stick with medic in this game because it is easier way to run and gun right after you just got shot your self. But this advantage sure makes people looks like as if they are working as team. I never played ArmA but if they don't teamwork maybe environment is not realistic enough or every player just coindicently decided so or just looks like not playing as team.

Normal BF2 it self has reviving. Do they work as team?
Normal BF2 it self has low gun accuracy. But do they play as team to provide more firepower?

Considering about those facts, removing revive system will not reduce teamwork in bad way.

Removing revive system or adding evac makes game very, very realistic. Teamwork will follow when simulation is realistic. Because coordinating attack as Team will win against lonewolf. I think current system that pilots players to stick togather is not a realistic teamwork. A teamwork that is used to gain advantage over enemy. It is arcade like teamwork.
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Last edited by Human_001; 04-16-2009 at 05:27 AM.. Reason: spelling error
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Old 04-16-2009, 05:59 AM   #57
SocketMan

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Default Re: @ CAS - Revive discussion (immature comments will be removed)

Keep the revive,but change it from 100% wounded when shot (unless in a vehicle or .50+ in the head) to 40 % chance of wounded,60 killed.Right now people don't care
if they get shot - they know it's not fatal.
No chance of killing the enemy when shooting them - honestly makes no sense to me.
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:18 AM   #58
TheLean
Supporting Member
Default Re: @ CAS - Revive discussion (immature comments will be removed)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titan View Post
... and why not connect the SL with his rally, if he dies the rally disapears... would make the Officer an high priority target again.
Now there is an idea worthy of its own thread..
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Old 04-16-2009, 02:16 PM   #59
Jaymz
Retired PR Developer
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Default Re: @ CAS - Revive discussion (immature comments will be removed)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psykogundam View Post
DAMNIT WHAT A BAD TIME FOR JAYMZ TO BE EXTRODITED!!!
Bye bye America...


"Clear the battlefield and let me see, All the profit from our victory." - Greg Lake
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Old 04-16-2009, 02:50 PM   #60
Psyko

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Default Re: @ CAS - Revive discussion (immature comments will be removed)

have you got one of the new psyko passports? you gotta apply in an irish embasy for one. you cant re-enter my Island without a passport that has the royal psykogundam seal on it. otherwise you'll end up spending half a week going through the "gud'luk'n'fuck'ya" papers.
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