@ CAS - Revive discussion (immature comments will be removed)

[Kirra]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]fuzzhead

Well we wont know what truly would happen unless we try it out, so most of this discussion is just pure speculation. But we can look at other games for an example. ArmA without revives is alot worse off. Left4Dead without revives would be nearly unplayable. These games arent like PR, but they do have a central focus like PR: teamwork. Check out the following games without revive systems: Insurgency, Red Orchestra, Call of Duty 4, Forgotten Hope 2, Resistance & Liberation... all these games without revive, and honestly I think most of them suffer from a clear lack of teamwork. Obviously there is other factors why they arent as great for teamwork, but I think missing that revive system is a key factor.

There is reviving in Bf2. There is still 0 teamwork, even with squads and the integral VOIP feature.

[cyberzomby]

Thats because all the good players moved on. To me there was at least a lot more teamwork in there than COD for example. When I went back to BF2 after PR I was like: How could I ever have thought that BF2 was about teamwork.

What I mean is: In pr theres a lot more teamwork but BF2 (and BF2142) werent that bad teamwork wise. Especially in BF2142 I was in loads of games where me and a few squad-members advanced together with the SL and revived everyone.

Also a good teamwork example game: Wolfenstein Enemy Territory. Rewards people for working together and it works. Now ofcourse there still isnt that much teamwork in there as with PR but more than in COD.

[Cassius]

CAS is fine the way it is I think. If good pilots are around it is effective, the way CAS should be. I have an issue with players complaining that CAS on a map like Barracuda tears up the chinese. If your position is getting hit by CAS leave or find someplace to take cover, but do not stand around in a target zone.

There is too much complaining on the boards in general instead of doing thinking in game. Like Barracuda again had to be dumped down because players rushed for the first flag that is game losing a lot of tickets in an uphill battle.

[Cpt. Trips]

Read a topic before you post in it, bro.

[Harrod200]

Hehe, that's an amusing post. I love fools who don't bother reading the topic. At all.

[Psyko]

First, i think the current medical system, doesnt provide good gameplay and should be altered and finally put to bed. heres what i think.

First, medics tend to downed field personel in safe situations. and normally in PR the body is getting riddled with bullets. The DEVs should be working on code for stopping legs from going through walls and dragging dead bodies. apparently it is possible but im not going to say who said it. and those two priorities should be addressed before any new fancy vehicles and factions be introduced.

the medics should only be given 2 epipens. and their access to pick up weapon kits, totally taken away. they should not be allowed pick up a friendly's kit off the ground and they should not be allowed request kits from anything.

Secondly, a choise needs to be made...

Either take away the rallys completely
or take away the medics completely

both of them are not needed, and only give the squad leaders false mentalities before battle which gets the squad killed. and if you want to totally rid run'n'gunning from the game, that issue must be investigated. and i say that not only as a tester but as a player and follower too.

[Axel]

I think soldiers should only take one bullet and then go critically wounded/dead depending on where it hits and, therefore I also think that players should still be revivable. The 60 secound death rule seems fine though to prevent "medic-spam" also 1 medic per squad will make games more interesting.

[Atandon]

We need to remember that PR is still a game and teamwork by each and every person cannot/will not be fostered on pub servers (where most players play). Majorpain, your ideas are more suited towards tournament play, where squad cohesion and discipline exists, rather than pub servers where people are just out to have a good time.

IMO, we really need to look at the difference between realistic and potentially game breaking game play...

[Alex6714]

Well we wont know what truly would happen unless we try it out, so most of this discussion is just pure speculation. But we can look at other games for an example. ArmA without revives is alot worse off. Left4Dead without revives would be nearly unplayable. Wolfenstein Enemy Territory has a unique revive system that I think works well. These games arent like PR, but they do have a central focus like PR: teamwork. Check out the following games without revive systems: Insurgency, Red Orchestra, Call of Duty 4, Forgotten Hope 2, Resistance & Liberation... all these games without revive, and honestly I think most of them suffer from a clear lack of teamwork. Obviously there is other factors why they arent as great for teamwork, but I think missing that revive system is a key factor.

Comparing to other games like that imo isnt great. I have played forgotten hope 2 with people on voip working in a team. Its rarer, but its also the only proper ww2 mod and doesn´t focus on realism as much.

I have even played AIX2 heaven forbid on voip with some random guys working together, and if you have ever tried that it is the god of all spam and such.

Things like cod4 and insurgency also lack key factors. Vehicles, as much as some seem to hate them, more teamwork is there when you have them either on your team to work with or firing at you and you need help to kill them. But thats not this topic.

- Without a revive, a player spawning back at base / firebase / rp is less likely to regroup with the squad if they are a distance away, and more likely to walk towards whatever is current interest (empty vehicle, some shooting going on, etc). the player will get in the first available vehicle and make his way into the battlefield - like has been said, the player wants to play the damn game, not sit around idle all day at base waiting for the squad to die. if there is no vehicle he will probably start walking.

Again, this depends on the player and the admins. If there was enough transport on most maps this wouldn´t be a problem either, imagine jabal or muttrah. There would be very little waiting around due to the dedicated transport squads that would be set up.

There is no need to wait until they die, you can go and regroup at them via heli/truck (bringing back the crewman/officer requirement for trucks).

- on a typical server with little organization, you will still see "streaming" players coming one by one from the spawnpoints, because they are not going to wait to regroup and will move out soon after spawning.

Thats not the mod problem imo, it happens now... Especially since you can just take a truck with any old kit.

- revives I feel are an alternative approach to "spawning" ie: neither reviving or spawning is realistic, but reviving increases the need for teamwork whereas spawning does not involve any teamwork or reliance on squad members, but simply rewards individual choice and a carefree attitude and the team wide situation.

It does require teamwork, am ore team wide teamwork in which you have to interact with transport squads and maybe other squads also going to the front with which you can regroup (good with mumble becomming more popular).

- revives add a very basic approach to the real life time consuming process of treating combat casualties in a warzone. Although its only barely touched upon in PR with the current system, its better than completely abandoning/ignoring the wounded IMO. For example, right now a team that does not abandon their wounded over a team that does abandon their wounded will generally be in better shape ticket wise anyways.

The thing is, it takes no time at all to revive and heal someone, and meanwhile they are almost 100% effective. If it to 1 shot to critically wound someone it might be alright, but since it takes 2 or 3, depending on your rifle there is already a factor in keeping people alive and healing, if only they would keep their damn heads down when shot rather than continue to shoot back, something they dont care about doing because they can be revived anyway.

- by removing revive, you would probably see instead of 1 or 2 medics per squad (currently the norm) you would see 1 or 2 medics per team, and they would almost always be using the kit to heal themselves when they get shot rather than helping any teammates. I fear the Medics would simply turn into an assault class cause they can take a few more bullets and keep going (this is a common behavior of medics in other games I have observed).

Like in vanilla where there are revives?

Edit: Just make it so that medics cannot heal themselves. I bet it can be done somehow.

I feel if the changes above were implemented (no RP, low or no respawn time, no revive) then using real life tactics and organization skills would not be much benefit to just run and gunning, whoever gets the luck shot in first and trying to organise pub players would simply be unfeasible.

Thing is, run and gun wouldn´t really work, because you just die.

Thinking back to 0.6 when it was a bit too much, imagine for a second you have 0.6 deviation coupled with 0.85 suppression. You can´t turn and shoot accurately, if you get shot at your only choice is to gtfo or die, cos you know that person will hit you easily.

In contrast to 0.8, where in general no one really cared because chances are they would get the lucky shot in the 3 mags or so that each person needed to fire at range.


In the end this is basically what it comes down to imo.

Originally Posted by Kirra

There is reviving in Bf2. There is still 0 teamwork, even with squads and the integral VOIP feature.

Originally Posted by cyberzomby

Thats because all the good players moved on.

Yup, good players, revive, no revive, god revive, everyone medics etc in the end it comes down to the players.

[Psyko]

another option is to have spawns "available" and "unavailable" in a repeatable pattern so people spawn in groups and then require using transport in bulk to get back to their squads, simulating "reinfocements".