APC - Fighting Vehicle or Personal Carrier?

[LtSoucy]

Each PR APC/IFV:
USMC:
LAV-25 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
US Army:
M2/M3 Bradley Fighting Vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Stryker - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
British:
Warrior tracked armoured vehicle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
FV107 Scimitar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
MEC:
BRDM-2 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BTR-90 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BMP-3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
China:
No infomation on there APC.

Now if you see most are APC's and should be done as said many times, only problem. Its hard to get guys who have never played with each other before to do such teamwork.

[Truism]

Originally Posted by LtSoucy

Now if you see most are APC's and should be done as said many times, only problem. Its hard to get guys who have never played with each other before to do such teamwork.

I disagree, it's because there's no real need to for the most part. A detached APC is a highly effective killing machine that is more than capable of killing most threats before they can kill it. It doesn't need native infantry support, it doesn't benefit enough to go through the trauma of trying to get people to work together. At most, the enemy has 4 AT kits, only two of which are nearly as dangerous to you as you are to them, the other two have rates of fire hundreds of times less than your's and do about half as much damage to you as you do to them. They are less accurate and have worse sighting mechanisms than you also.

In other words, there are only two people on the other team who aren't in APCs of their own that you are scared of, only two who can engage you on remotely fair terms, and 28 others for you to farm for tickets. If you are even remotely successful, then the number of people on the other team who can dent your armour will never be at 4. In an average game, no more than 2 out of 5 squads will have any anti-armour capability at all. That's a lot of people looking to become homes for HE shrapnel.

You could try and help cap points with native infantry, but what would the point be? The win conditions don't favour aggressive flag capping - bleed sits so far back that simply fighting to it takes most of the match to get to them. You do better by using your mobility and firepower to bleed the other team out the old fashioned way, and help frustrate their plans.

This, by the way, is not support for nerfing the mobility, armour or firepower of APCs in any way. That's silly because APCs aren't the problem - unrealistically gimped infantry are.

[Tirak]

Originally Posted by LtSoucy

Now if you see most are APC's and should be done as said many times, only problem. Its hard to get guys who have never played with each other before to do such teamwork.

Shame on you Soucy, the Scimitar is a Light Recon Tank, not even an IFV.

[SqnLdr]

Originally Posted by [R-COM]Outlawz

Why move slowly and support infantry, when you can do 60 Km/h and kill enemies on the go and run over a poor bastard here and there and no AT can get a shot on you and you probably killed all the guys that had the five AT kits in existence anyway.
Anyone thought of that?

I hope this is sarcasm.
If not, I think you've missed the whole point of the thread.
Edit: Truism, you do have a fair point, however there is far more on the battlefield that can dispatch with IFVs and APCs then other APCs and infantry carried AT. Mines, Heavy Armour, Airsupport that can be called down surgically by any SL, etc. - That's if you're willing to go through the "trauma" of trying to get people to work together - something happening on public servers across the world right now.

[Alex6714]

I hope this doesn´t turn into a lets remove all vehicles so that infantry have unrealistically nothing to worry about in modern warfare.

[[R-DEV]Outlawz7]

Originally Posted by SqnLdr

I hope this is sarcasm.
If not, I think you've missed the whole point of the thread.

No I didn't.

http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f112...tml#post791886

[LtSoucy]

Originally Posted by Truism

I disagree, it's because there's no real need to for the most part. A detached APC is a highly effective killing machine that is more than capable of killing most threats before they can kill it. It doesn't need native infantry support, it doesn't benefit enough to go through the trauma of trying to get people to work together. At most, the enemy has 4 AT kits, only two of which are nearly as dangerous to you as you are to them, the other two have rates of fire hundreds of times less than your's and do about half as much damage to you as you do to them. They are less accurate and have worse sighting mechanisms than you also.

In other words, there are only two people on the other team who aren't in APCs of their own that you are scared of, only two who can engage you on remotely fair terms, and 28 others for you to farm for tickets. If you are even remotely successful, then the number of people on the other team who can dent your armour will never be at 4. In an average game, no more than 2 out of 5 squads will have any anti-armour capability at all. That's a lot of people looking to become homes for HE shrapnel.

You could try and help cap points with native infantry, but what would the point be? The win conditions don't favour aggressive flag capping - bleed sits so far back that simply fighting to it takes most of the match to get to them. You do better by using your mobility and firepower to bleed the other team out the old fashioned way, and help frustrate their plans.

This, by the way, is not support for nerfing the mobility, armour or firepower of APCs in any way. That's silly because APCs aren't the problem - unrealistically gimped infantry are.

You seemed not to get my post, you have 6 guys. Non of them have never played with each other before. The teamwork rate has been proven to be alot lower in those groups. In a group of 6 men that play all the time with each other, the teamwork rate is much higher.

[Cassius]

Irl the apc moves you to the battle, most of the maps start during a battle usually, you are already there. On maps like Kashan desert it makes much sense for the apc to transport troops. Or on Assault on Mestia if you have to change location.

On Muttrah you are usually heavily involved into fighting most of the times, so it does not make sense to bother entering the apc. The apc should stick with the troops.
If you have a lot of ground to cover however, as always it makes sense again to call for transport instead of having a huey land in a hotzone.

Basrah is an excellent map to employ troop transport via apc. You safe time and on the approach over open ground to the city the apc covers you and delivers your squad safely.

So in other words, use common sense. Is there a lot of ground to cover, will there be enough idle time that it is worth to bother waiting for and boarding the apc ?

EDIT: I noticed many suggesting the apc is fine on his own and shouldnt worry about infantery support. I disagree, if he lonewolves enemy squads will either hide or hide and destroy the apc. On most maps best strategy with an apc is to stand back and casually crash a firefight putting rounds in like 2-3 enemy squads, which are totally in the open with nowhere to run and dissappearing again. Not only is this strategy safer, but you will also get A LOT more kills.

[Liquid_Cow]

Originally Posted by Truism

it's a byproduct of the long standing Infantry/Armour imbalance.

Ah, that's kinda the point. Infantry runs from armor. There is very little you can do to a tank to stop it. Typical USMC augmented infantry platoon (+/-60 men) would have one HAT team and maybe a half dozen LAT missiles. So on a 64 player server we already have a lot more AT than IRL would.

The real problem in PR is the lack of coordination between infantry and armor. Play a tournament some day and you'll see some amazing team work. We ran an organic armor platoon, but we worked very closely with infantry, responding to request for support (team speak squad leader's channel is essential for this, though a good commander would work as well), providing transport and evac, even playing decoy for the infantry.

Frankly, on pub servers I don't think you'll ever get over this problem. Too many players don't understand how to coordinate with armor, so on those servers I just sit on the hill top with my 25mm sniper rifle and pick off noobs.

[Solid Knight]

The issue it really that people tend to group armor and people tend to group infantry into separate squads. Communication is too slow between the two so the APC drivers do their own thing.