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PR:BF2 General Discussion General discussion of the Project Reality: BF2 modification.

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Old 12-12-2017, 01:26 AM   #31
Bluedrake42
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TBH the biggest setback in terms of people leaving we have had other than Slick, was the loss of both our Animators (Chuc and KaB) as while they where both more than happy to hand over all their knowledge etc, they didn't have any time they could put towards making new animations in the future which did set us back a bit. But luckily Wlfk has come out of the community in the last few months and has really stepped up in the animations department. TBH we had the exact same issue when Chuc initially left but then KaB stepped up to that too.

So the problem there really hasn't been so much knowledge, tbh that has been handed down pretty well in most cases though tutorials and just internal comms (old members still chip into our internal dev discussions now and then even). The bigger loss is not having anyone of a particular skillset, that is when things really grind to a hult in terms of development.
What is your recruitment process when you decide to start recruiting for new developers of a specific skillset? Also how specialized do they need to be within a specific tool/engine/etc, and are there any major idiosyncrasies for specific talents specific to the Refractor engine? Quite simply... how feasible is it to headhunt in other development forums (Unreal Engine 4, Unity, etc) that share similarities with the workflow of Refractor?

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As for where are documentation is, pretty much all of it is fully public knowledge and can be found in our tutorials section, anything that isn't in the public domain is not there since either it has no relevance to the community and/or is sensitive material that could be exploited in the wrong hands (like how to use our SVN servers).
Modding Tutorials - Project Reality Forums
Do you have an issue or commit comment system? When someone submits code, or you do your sprints/epics/etc/however-the-fuck-you-decide-to-do-your-stuff where is that kept? Do you have anything like that anywhere publicly? What is your general project management environment like? Do you only use SVN commit comments? Or is there something external?

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A download button for some tools like the BF2 Editor in the launcher might be an idea but having them fully integrated would take up too much space, and while it might get a few more people to load up the editor, without actually seeking out to make a map from the offset it will probably put more people off from mapping etc than getting people into it since the learning curve is pretty steep to begin with.
Sorry, that is what I meant. Of course it wouldn't automatically download all the tools for clients not interested in mapping. However just centralizing the entire development tool library for clients, so those who are interested can more easily access all the required software they need for content creation, could by itself likely vastly improve community development overall.

Just a small "tools" section within the launcher, or otherwise. It could potentially even utilize the auto-updater system, or it could just be a simple file host URL. Either way, little things like that have major impacts in contributor conversions.

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The biggest issue with this, other than actually making the infrastructure to make it work, is it splitting the community even more with some players playing mini mods, some playing with some custom content, and others playing standard etc, but more likely than that, servers will not run these custom mini-mods etc for more than just a one-off events. It is hard enough as it is to get servers to run the different map layers than the most popular ones even

TBH IMO we are better off spending that time integrating any good content fully into the mod, rather than having some possibly low quality / questionable content that players can opt to download and play, some may even change the core beliefs of our mod, which is the same reason why we outlawed server-side modding in the early days as servers where turning PR into vBF2 with more powerful weapons with them lower the spawn times of vehicles etc.
I understand that... and I'm not asking that we open up the flood gates of community development projects. However... even making an "official" submission and approval process for content, or anything more obvious and clear to prospective content creators could have a massive impact.

I've read your mapping tutorials, and otherwise... they're all very thorough, and very good (although a few possibly outdated, but that's a different problem) however for a game like Project Reality... if you really want to encourage community contribution, you have to spend almost an equal amount of time "designing" the tutorial/development experience, as well as the game.

I know this probably puts a bad taste in some developers mouths... since development is "supposed" to be awkward and not straightforward... but at the end of the day, if you want more people creating content for your game, you have to make that entire side of the game equally entertaining and interesting to be involved with.

Things like having a tool download menu in the launcher is just the beginning... but those engaging video tutorials, pretty PDF tutorials, as well as just about anything else to get your common prospective content creator excited about creating content... really makes a difference.

Also putting together a comprehensive list of different things a creator can do, and the difficulty levels of each... almost designing a tiered career path for new contributors... can help get originally completely inept content creators quickly up to speed, and help them see more immediate results of their work... potentially getting them more involved long-term.

I've seen this happen pretty frequently in UE4... where they do simple programs on how to design a level, that you can play in same day. Is it an incredible thing for an amateur to achieve? No of course not... its pretty low skill... but it really helps get those people addicted to the process, and to the engine.

Get em while they're young... and stupid. They'll stick around forever.

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If EA was up to that I'm sure we would be, in principle
If you are interested you would have to PM me, it would be rude of me to mention names or otherwise here. I'm not promising anything either, I just know a few people that could potentially get the conversation started... and of course I occasionally get invited to Redwood City. Things like that usually just revolve around shaking the right hands. EA can be a pretty flexible company if you find common ground.

Unfortunately I really need to work on actual work now. I am neglecting my own people writing these posts. If you have any other questions let me know. I would like to think that PR doesn't need to die, its just a matter of infrastructure, expansion, and exploration of new/different opportunities. Possibly also legal as well... I don't know, I would have to learn more about how you all work first.

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Old 12-12-2017, 02:39 AM   #32
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Default Re: Worth To Get Back Into The Game?

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Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
Sorry, that is what I meant. Of course it wouldn't automatically download all the tools for clients not interested in mapping. However just centralizing the entire development tool library for clients, so those who are interested can more easily access all the required software they need for content creation, could by itself likely vastly improve community development overall.

Just a small "tools" section within the launcher, or otherwise. It could potentially even utilize the auto-updater system, or it could just be a simple file host URL. Either way, little things like that have major impacts in contributor conversions.
There's no such thing as "common tools" for bf2 modding as pretty much all work being done through text editor that's already a part of OS, and rest of tools(bfeditor\3ds\whatever) optional helpers that just simplify work in a way it's suits modder. F.e. rhino being oldfag still sticks to max9 while our new animator wlfk working in max18, and both of them had to fine their workflow experimenting themself.

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Old 12-12-2017, 02:55 AM   #33
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There's no such thing as "common tools" for bf2 modding as pretty much all work being done through text editor that's already a part of OS, and rest of tools(bfeditor\3ds\whatever) optional helpers that just simplify work in a way it's suits modder. F.e. rhino being oldfag still sticks to max9 while our new animator wlfk working in max18, and both of them had to fine their workflow experimenting themself.
No of course, but things like mapping tools and otherwise is pretty significant. Obviously you're not going to bundle something like Maya with the launcher.

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Old 12-12-2017, 03:32 AM   #34
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The only reason EA hasn't smacked PR is because a red flag hasn't gone up yet. If RDEV were to attempt a Steam release, or any other high-brow distribution, EA would quickly move to counter.
LMAO. PR is still only a mod. Sophisticated, total conversion and etc. but still only a mod. How it can be released on Steam as a separate game?

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That alone cripples full control of the project, as well as the full potential it has to grow and expand. Staying local looks worse and worse, especially as viable licensed alternatives continue to grow in accessibility and power.
Such alternatives like...

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Originally Posted by Michael_Denmark View Post
What would it take for making it worth for EA, to literally fund this modification?
Money. But that wouldn't be a thing because they're not interested in something like that. Correct me if I wrong, but people was trying to contact EA on that subject before and nothing has happened. None of the recent EA projects have any kind of modding tools released by the developers.

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Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
If RDEV were to start cataloging and archiving assets, meshes, and all universal file formats into a single cohesive library...
There's a possibility that R-Devs never had full access(I mean including legal ability to copy, modify or distribute) to some part of those source files in the first place, at least not to all of them and especially current R-Dev team. You've mentioned releasing PR on steam early on. Even if EA would be okay with that or PRM would migrate to other engine there is still a problem. Lots of PRM content belongs to people who are no longer available or not really into giving up their rights for free. I think this is the biggest problem(legal at least) with moving everything on a new engine.

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So of the original Core Team... the entirety of Project Reality's original management team, including every lead developer (except for AfterDune,) and over 70% of all core developers for Project Reality, have left the project.
More than 9 years have passed since the release of the PRM. How long was your longest job? Mine was 6 years because I've been paid well, but that was exhausting and felt just wrong after my growth as a worker has stopped.

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So all the people complaining about Project Reality "dying" and that there aren't enough players... this is the reason why. Its not because not enough people play the game... or we need to promote more... or yada yada... its because the community hasn't been given the control it needs to continue this project, by an elite few who just happened to have usurped control of the original project.

I'm not fear mongering. I'm just frustrated that the future of my favorite game has been gummed up by political BS and childish power playing. A constant theme with anything related to the Project Reality community for some reason. So forgive me if I frequently sound bitter, if I do it is because I am.
There are some flaws in your logic. Current R-Dev team didn't hijack anything. They've just proceed to work on the project which was never "community" in a sense you're seeing it. There was a thing called "Black Sand Studios" in the beginning. I think you see PRM as something which belongs to us, players, which is really not, even though we can contribute. We don't really own anything here, even our copies of the mod doesn't really belongs to us(or R-Devs either), and there's nothing wrong with that I think.

I think that R-Devs have to regulate licenses because they can get their ass kicked for dumb people who would do dumb things with the server in the end. Something like "New Year's Holocaust Event" on the basis of EA's BF2 mod can turn everything in a shit show for everyone and even get mod to be shut down.

Why are you upset with politics in the PR team? It's essential part of every human society. That's basically what means to be a community(to participate in common politics).

Open source wouldn't make anything easier because it would bring many versions and edits to PRM and as it was said before will split playerbase. And still even if PRM would go open source it would take someone to control "current" or if you want "stable" version. It would take some man-hours to check all different versions for bugs and to decide which is going to get in the stable release and which is not. Don't forget about trying to compile all that different versions together.

But I think that there are some things which can be done in that field. R-Devs can do something to allow custom content to be loaded on the fly. This will help with events and stuff like that. Some additional mapping tools(since BF2e is total shit) would be helpful too, but someone have to invest huge amount of time in making them. There are lots of things can be done in order to "fix"(if you want) PRM without turning it into something else.

PS. Hell, I was reading and answering from the beginning and just got to the Rhino's answers. Fuck it, I will leave it as it is.
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Old 12-12-2017, 03:48 AM   #35
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No of course, but things like mapping tools and otherwise is pretty significant. Obviously you're not going to bundle something like Maya with the launcher.
Mapping tools isn't just bfeditor neither. F.e. pretty much all of mappers doing their terrain&textures in external programs. Obviously we're not going to bundle something like Geocontrol\Worldmachine\Photoshop with the launcher
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LMAO. PR is still only a mod. Sophisticated, total conversion and etc. but still only a mod. How it can be released on Steam as a separate game?
CoH: Blitzkreig did. Just as example.

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Old 12-12-2017, 03:52 AM   #36
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Holy crap I am glad I didn't read all that.

Just play the game guys, populate the servers and keep being passionate about the best game in the world.


Xact Wicca is The Joker. That is all.
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Old 12-12-2017, 04:09 AM   #37
[R-DEV]Rhino
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Mapping tools isn't just bfeditor neither. F.e. pretty much all of mappers doing their terrain&textures in external programs. Obviously we're not going to bundle something like Geocontrol\Worldmachine\Photoshop with the launcher
Yar.

Again I am worried that just giving downloads to even the tools we can without the proper context will just lead to more confusion from people on how to use them and will just overwhelm them more than anything.

The way we have it setup now is you find the tools, with download links, in the tutorials which teach you how to use them and require them as you need them and tbh, still convinced that is the best approach myself, although the tutorials themselves I agree could be improved and updated a lot, they do their job and people using them aren't complaining, other than some really old tuts missing pics etc

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Old 12-12-2017, 04:13 AM   #38
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CoH: Blitzkreig did. Just as example.
Did they do that on their own? Or did THQ allow them do that? I said that because I really doubt that EA would be that interested in doing anything like that.
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Old 12-12-2017, 06:19 AM   #39
HOLLYWOODY
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Bluto's right! I hear your rallying call Bluedrake and stand with you. Let's do it!

From now on, anyone that says this game dying is dead to me! I wish they would just die off silently instead of bitch and moan. If you don’t want to help us then shut the fuck up and get out of here. We’re not giving up! This ship isn’t going down without a fight!! Who else is with us?!!!

From my own experience, I definitely agree with Bluedrake that certain things need to change around here in order to unleash our community’s and game’s potential. He is asking all of the right questions. Separately, I will begin to address issues individually so they can be focused on and dealt with efficiently. I sense a bunch of talent on the forums that hasn’t been utilized due to the apparent friction of the development process here. I personally have been discouraged to take further action despite a team member generously offering mentorship. However, it’s inspiring to witness Bluedrake and Rhino talk shop instead of what they used to do. Their teamwork is a great sign and motivates me to take action again. I have a bunch of similar concepts in the works and will share them soon. I want to expose my learning experience as a student here in order to improve the overall development process. I hope to then teach and enable more people to contribute as well.

Teamwork makes the dream work.
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Old 12-12-2017, 06:36 AM   #40
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Money. But that wouldn't be a thing because they're not interested in something like that. Correct me if I wrong, but people was trying to contact EA on that subject before and nothing has happened. None of the recent EA projects have any kind of modding tools released by the developers.
Sure they are interested in money. They do have shareholders, right. Could be I got the information wrong, getting old you know, so, please bear over with me, if the following three largest shareholders of EA, are outdated:

Fidelity Management and Research Company 29,914,178 shares
Fidelity Management & Research Company is a privately owned investment manager. The firm primarily provides its services to investment companies. It also caters to pooled investment vehicles and other investment advisers. The firm manages equity, fixed income, and balanced mutual funds for its clients. It invests in the public equity and fixed income markets. The firm was founded in 1946 and is based in Boston, Massachusetts with additional offices in London, United Kingdom, Merrimack, New Hampshire, Miami, Florida, Montreal, Quebec, Smithfield, Rhode Island, and Toronto, Canada. Fidelity Management & Research Company operates as a subsidiary of Fidelity Investments.

Vanguard Group Inc 25,174,349 shares
The Vanguard Group is an American registered investment advisor based in Malvern, Pennsylvania with over $4.5 trillion in assets under management. It is the largest provider of mutual funds and the second-largest provider of exchange-traded funds (ETFs) in the world after BlackRock's iShares.[6] In addition to mutual funds and ETFs, Vanguard offers brokerage services, variable and fixed annuities, educational account services, financial planning, asset management, and trust services.

Founder and former chairman John C. Bogle is credited with the creation of the first index fund available to individual investors and has been a proponent of and a major enabler of low-cost investing by individuals.[7][8] Vanguard is structured as a mutual company; it is owned by funds managed by the company, and is therefore owned by its customers.[9][10] Vanguard offers two classes of most of its funds: investor shares and admiral shares. Admiral shares have slightly lower expense ratios but require a higher minimum investment.[11]

T. Rowe Price Associates, Inc. 22,660,101 shares
T. Rowe Price Group, Inc. is an American publicly owned global asset management firm that offers funds, advisory services, account management, and retirement plans and services for individuals, institutions, and financial intermediaries. The firm, with assets under management of more than $800 billion dollars at the end of 2016, is headquartered at 100 East Pratt Street in Baltimore, Maryland, and its 16 offices serve clients in 45 countries around the world.[1]

It was founded in 1937 by Thomas Rowe Price, Jr. who is best known for developing the growth stock philosophy of investing.

***

This information is of course useless in it self, however, perhaps the key to the funding scenario, can still be found within this context?

Define irony. A bunch of guys playing PR year after year. A game teaching initiative as the prime mover.
However, in regard to EA, these guys never took the initiative.
We who play these kinds of games are the first generation of war robot pilots.Today we pilot a camera in 3D heaven,Tomorrow... http://gametactic.org/pr
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