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Old 12-11-2017, 04:23 PM   #21
Vista
Default Re: Worth To Get Back Into The Game?

Go get 'em Bluedrake
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Old 12-11-2017, 04:24 PM   #22
[R-DEV]AfterDune
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We get new team members every month, we just don't update our "team page" very often . This means testers, contributors and contributors promoted to developers. All those people come from the community mind you.

Obviously we don't give up control, because things would die down really fast. You'll end up with a divided playerbase and what not. If one wants to contribute, make an effort by modding the game. If we like it, we'll put it in the mod and make the person a contributor. And if we don't like it, well, end of story. But you're free to create a minimod or event if you like though.

Also we have several repositories and most of our original assets, so no worries there.

The reason we haven't started a new project on another engine (mod or standalone indie game) is because we simply don't have the manpower to do such a thing. To be honest, I don't really see us make an indie game from the ground up. We'd be better off making another mod on an existing game. We talk about this from time to time, but no serious efforts have been made.

Anyway, waaaay off topic here. If TS wants to know if he should play the game, my answer would be "yes". Just download and play and find out if you like it. It's as simple as that.

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Old 12-11-2017, 04:59 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by [R-DEV]AfterDune View Post
Obviously we don't give up control, because things would die down really fast. You'll end up with a divided playerbase and what not. If one wants to contribute, make an effort by modding the game. If we like it, we'll put it in the mod and make the person a contributor. And if we don't like it, well, end of story.
That's alright. Just a difference of opinion. I don't fault you for it, nor do I think anyone from RDEV is purposefully doing anything to hurt the Project Reality community.

I don't agree with how you all function, and I don't know how far down everything has to fall before we give another school of thought a try. I don't think anyone is doing it intentionally, but it frustrates me.

I can't ever be mad at you though AfterDune. Your niceness is my kryptonite. Can't say the same for a good portion of other RDEV users though.

Project Reality is the only game I care about non-commercially, and it annoys me to see what has happened to it. Eventually if it dies, I'll just become completely corporate. Until that transition happens however... I'll continue to come back here and be bitter once every few months, just hoping something we talk about catches on... and someone does something about it before this community hits bingo.

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we simply don't have the manpower
You get manpower by building a system that incentivizes the onboarding of manpower... however over the past few years I've seen a starkly biased opposition against recruitment and contributor expansion. The tools and process of contribution for the Project Reality community haven't been properly opened or maintained in a way that effectively incentivizes contribution.

There is no clean, or unbiased method to contributing to the community... and I think that is an issue. If that were to be a priority, you would see a huge influx of creative content and contributions. This isn't an issue with resources... its an issue of initiative, and taking advantage of those resources.

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We'd be better off making another mod on an existing game. We talk about this from time to time, but no serious efforts have been made.
I have made a completely unexpected living for the past year (or possibly two years) developing software and selling it to companies that work in integrations.

I will literally license my work to you for free, and help you assess and execute a proper attempt to start building a project within UE4. I have done this numerous times for multiple other companies, and I will literally do this for you all for free. I would give you a full legal license to utilize and build upon our work... just because I feel indebted to the Project Reality community, and watching this community die is like watching one of my dogs die.

For the love of god. Let the community properly help you carry the torch. The issue is not that there are not people willing to help... the issue is that RDEV refuses to properly mobilize them, and accept that help is needed.

PR is like that stubborn dad who refuses to ask for help from his family, even though he is about to get evicted... and doesn't have any income.

Dad. Let us fucking... help you.

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Old 12-11-2017, 05:03 PM   #24
Frontliner
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Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
Of the few underlings remaining, who still hold the keys to the master servers and development repositories... instead of letting the community take over development of the game (as I would have expected them to) they have been holding on to all the original systems they can (including the original master server system) which keeps the community from continuing the project without their interference, or without their control.
Dafuq are you talking about? Everybody was and is free to create something they like if they put enough time and effort into it. That's how people went from [R-CON] to [R-DEV] in most cases, because they proved their work to be a valued and a valuable addition to the project. This "secluded society" you're picturing doesn't exist, as a matter of fact the game wouldn't be what it is today without its players stepping up and investing time into it, which is why many Devs are trying to be helpful whenever they can, such as Outlawz and Max helping me making my map and AlonTavor "coding" an entire new gamemode for an event. The reason why not everybody is being allowed to add stuff at random is firstly because it is still being developed and secondly to make sure that it meets certain requirements and fits, and because the game needs to be compiled to work, further reinforcing why you can't open source it all.

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So all the people complaining about Project Reality "dying" and that there aren't enough players... this is the reason why. Its not because not enough people play the game... or we need to promote more... or yada yada... its because the community hasn't been given the control it needs to continue this project,
The game is old, mate. It's pushed the boundaries of the BF2 engine and then some, but it's always been a very niche game experience that requires much more from the player than to enjoy pretty lights flashing, kill streaks and other bullshit that most shooters have today. Which is both a curse and a blessing, a curse because it never allowed the game to be absurdly popular, a blessing because it enjoyed continued support from players because there are no better alternatives at that time/even today.

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by an elite few who just happened to have usurped control of the original project.
Do you actually hear yourself talk when you spew something as ridiculous as this? Are you actually this stupid in the head? Nobody in the Dev team got to where they are now without hardwork and dedication to the project, nobody "just so happens" to be part of the team for nothing.

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I'm not fear mongering. I'm just frustrated that the future of my favorite game has been gummed up by political BS and childish power playing. A constant theme with anything related to the Project Reality community for some reason. So forgive me if I frequently sound bitter, if I do it is because I am.
The only one attempting a childish power play is yourself, BlueDrake. As far as I know you haven't done anything meaningful to developing the game, so why should your opinion count for shit? Do you think you're the only one with an opinion or idea here?

ArkUTD: Do note this issue was resolved by the admin team and mats, thus this was closed
]CIA[ SwampFox: well my definition of glitching is using an enemy kit to kill the enemy
Para: You sir are an arse and not what the game or our community needs.
AlonTavor: that's like 5% holocaust there
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Old 12-11-2017, 05:31 PM   #25
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Frontliner we've reached this point of critical mass, where I don't respect you enough to have your counter insults really matter to me that much.

I've said my piece. You all figure out what you want to do with it. Worst case scenario you all do nothing, and things keep going the way they have, and nothing changes.

Doesn't matter to me either way. I've already made peace with how this likely goes down. 95% likelyhood that a bunch of the RDEV's/RCON's/etc circle jerk about how wrong everyone else is, until they feel sufficiently elated.

The only reason I still post here is just waiting for the 5% chance that that doesn't happen, and someone actually does something.

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Old 12-11-2017, 06:03 PM   #26
Frontliner
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Most of what you said was wrong, and large parts of what was wrong you said despite fully knowing that what you are saying is utter bullcrap. So the intention can only be to largely discredit those who put a lot of their time and efforts into shaping the project in front of players who might not know better. This is nothing an act of malice born out of spite and bitterness, the last of which you admitted to yourself.

And your reason for doing all of this is nothing else but "I want this project to go the way I want it to", that's all it boils down to for you. I won't deny there's a certain passion for the game to be found within that, but I will also say that this is both the root of your problems with the Dev Team and the source of the "childish power playing" you oh so accurately spoke of yourself. Of course the only salvation for the game cannot be found within the guys who've developed this game for X time, but you instead.

I would say that the Dev Team's assertion that there is nothing to be gained from your interference is quite accurate.
And also, there still is no shame in this game eventually dying one day.

ArkUTD: Do note this issue was resolved by the admin team and mats, thus this was closed
]CIA[ SwampFox: well my definition of glitching is using an enemy kit to kill the enemy
Para: You sir are an arse and not what the game or our community needs.
AlonTavor: that's like 5% holocaust there
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Old 12-11-2017, 08:58 PM   #27
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And also, there still is no shame in this game eventually dying one day.
You all have come to terms with it dying, that is fine. I disagree. I just hope someone with some sense makes a change before there isn't any chance to change left. I don't mind either way. Would just be a shame, especially since it is something that can be avoided.

No one will be able to say I didn't advise against it though. Just seems like the same exact mistakes for the past three years, killing off the project slowly. All the same issues, over and over again.

I was hoping that after a certain breaking point people would say "man we should probably fix something" but after talking to the previous developers that left the project, I think everyone has become defeatist. Seems like a shitty way to go.

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Old 12-11-2017, 09:58 PM   #28
[R-DEV]Rhino
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Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
If RDEV were to start cataloging and archiving assets, meshes, and all universal file formats into a single cohesive library... you could start preparing all of realitymod's creative content for an engine migration.
I'm sorry but there are huge legal problems with even thinking about doing something like that, just for starters. Anyone who contributed any work for PR:BF2, did so for PR:BF2 and you need to get permission to use any asset outside of that, by everyone who worked on that asset (and for the most part, the models, UVs, textures, export, coding, animations, sounds etc are all done by separate people with often multiple people working on one of those areas too). This is in place so no one can gain/profit off of anyone else's work without their direct consent and protects the original creator(s).

This is also not to mention that these assets have been made for a 12yr+ engine and most are very old too and wouldn't be able to "plug and play" into another engine even if one wanted it to which they probably wouldn't as the quality levels of someone going to a new engine would say are too low since times have moved on a lot since then.

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However I have a theory/feeling that RDEV's SVN repository is dilapidated, and the reason a major migration hasn't started is because they have either lost, damaged, or not maintained Project Reality's original raw assets.

Although that is biased since it includes the .svn files, so the above minus this: https://i.imgur.com/Lo0tWfa.jpg

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Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
I mean... even the official Project Reality Youtube channel was shut down, because the original owner of the account was AWOL. If that is the state of what PUBLIC realitymod accounts and platforms look like... I can only imagine what the state of INTERNAL development accounts and repositories look like.
Unforantly that was down to how 2Slick4U insisted on setting up all his accounts, with him having full control over them and no one else could touch them. Pretty much all of the team protested about this but the only way to stop him from doing it, would have been to remove him from the team and make new accounts early on in his place, and with him also having full control over the site/forums too at the time would have meant also losing them. It was hard enough for us to gain back control of them and we eventually had to go totally around him to some of our really old server admins before Slick came in, who still had some access to them and was able to give us control of the site/forums again. Unfourtantly YouTube wouldn't listen to us that we where the rightful owners of PR and instead just shut down the account.

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I took a screenshot of the current "Core Team" listing on here Project Reality's website... and then I crossed out every developer listed there, that has their account set to "retired."
As AD said, team members have come and gone from PR for years. Hell even when we where at v0.4, hardly any of the original team members from the v0.1 / v0.2 days where still around and same has gone from there with the team and the mod constantly evolving together. I am one of the very few devs who has stuck with the mod over the years although in an ever-dwindling capacity to what I use to contribute due to r/l stuff etc.

The thing you need to remember is that Project Reality is a volunteer-based mod/game, and as such, that very model means that people are constantly coming and going all the time as real-life circumstances change or they move on to other things such as Squad.

I also suggest you read this, might give you some insight to where PR has been before you came on the scene: http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-...t-reality.html

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Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
You get manpower by building a system that incentivizes the onboarding of manpower... however over the past few years I've seen a starkly biased opposition against recruitment and contributor expansion. The tools and process of contribution for the Project Reality community haven't been properly opened or maintained in a way that effectively incentivizes contribution.
You mean the system that over the years has given this mod something like 500+ weapons, 200+ vehicles, over 100 maps over the years and a shit tone of other stuff that has made this mod probably the biggest thing out there where it comes to content for a FPS?

While yes, far fewer people want to work on a 12yr+ engine/game, the same system is still delivering today, just a few community examples:
http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388...ml#post2177738
http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388...ml#post2174167
http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388...-camo-t90.html
http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f388...ml#post2176142
+ many more other things being worked on in community modding.

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Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
There is no clean, or unbiased method to contributing to the community... and I think that is an issue. If that were to be a priority, you would see a huge influx of creative content and contributions. This isn't an issue with resources... its an issue of initiative, and taking advantage of those resources.
How would you suggest we improve on this?

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Old 12-11-2017, 11:44 PM   #29
Bluedrake42
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I appreciate the candid transparency.

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Unforantly that was down to how 2Slick4U insisted on setting up all his accounts, with him having full control over them and no one else could touch them. Pretty much all of the team protested about this but the only way to stop him from doing it, would have been to remove him from the team and make new accounts early on in his place, and with him also having full control over the site/forums too at the time would have meant also losing them. It was hard enough for us to gain back control of them and we eventually had to go totally around him to some of our really old server admins before Slick came in, who still had some access to them and was able to give us control of the site/forums again. Unfourtantly YouTube wouldn't listen to us that we where the rightful owners of PR and instead just shut down the account.
This makes the most sense. I think the biggest question is what are all the biggest roadblocks in terms of account management and ownership because of this. Just as like... a triage. What are all the accounts and systems central to RDEV, and of all of those... which are owned/run by who, and what is the access hierarchy for each. Are there any jointly owned accounts? If so... in what way.

What is the current state of RDEV infrastructure, both technically and legally. Only then could I possibly understand the true problems that are plaguing progress, and how best to overcome them.

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As AD said, team members have come and gone from PR for years. Hell even when we where at v0.4, hardly any of the original team members from the v0.1 / v0.2 days where still around and same has gone from there with the team and the mod constantly evolving together. I am one of the very few devs who has stuck with the mod over the years although in an ever-dwindling capacity to what I use to contribute due to r/l stuff etc.

The thing you need to remember is that Project Reality is a volunteer-based mod/game, and as such, that very model means that people are constantly coming and going all the time as real-life circumstances change or they move on to other things such as Squad.

I also suggest you read this, might give you some insight to where PR has been before you came on the scene: PR:BF2 General Discussion - Project Reality Forums
I'm aware, but the technical experience of long term members... as well as their integration into account systems, or in some cases just knowledge of improperly documented code/functions/systems can be major loses if there isn't a proper off-boarding process as well.

For instance the previous Slick issue. The bigger this game gets... and the longer people stay, and then subsequently leave... the more damage that is going to cause. Without a properly mandated/structured documentation and issue system, as well as commit comments/etc... onboarding new developers gets exponentially more difficult as time goes on.

I'm going to be forward, and assume that Rhino alone holds enough information in his head... that his departure would make maintaining certain parts of the project practically infinitely impossible to relearn/rebuild/develop.

I want to know more about the documentation process, and where your documentation it is stored/maintained/made available by developers.

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You mean the system that over the years has given this mod something like 500+ weapons, 200+ vehicles, over 100 maps over the years and a shit tone of other stuff that has made this mod probably the biggest thing out there where it comes to content for a FPS?
Yes

Quote:
How would you suggest we improve on this?
You fight antiquity with convenience. At this point infrastructure will likely have a larger impact on population than content. The auto-updater is likely more of a reason the game is still populated than most other features.

I'm probably not even fully aware of all the infrastructural things that you could do to help accessibility, or integration... but just a few examples off the top of my head.

1. Distributing tightly edited, pretty, and educational PDF tutorial files, that explain to community members how to create a single cohesive asset in Project Reality. Like a map, weapon, or vehicle. Or creating tightly edited videos that do the same thing.

2. Integrating important tools into the launcher itself, as well as possibly bundling development tools (and their required subsequent files) into single easy-to-install packages that help potential developers more conveniently expose themselves to elemental development software.

3. Developing content management systems, and possibly integrating them into core community services (like the auto-downloader.) Anything that centralizes distribution of additional community content like mini-mods, maps, or otherwise... into a single well maintained, easily accessible, and easily utilized service.

4. Expanding the server browser, and centralizing content. Allowing players to utilize a single portal to access all content related to their installation of Project Reality. Possibly even rebuilding the entire server browser outside of the game, allowing for advanced filters... and possibly even content synchronization with the custom servers.

There are a variety of ways, both short term and long term, that could have significant quality-of-life impacts, and help perpetually maintain the Project Reality community... even after other competitive titles release.

Also I'm not sure... but there is potentially even an angle to have Project Reality supported through Origin. I'm not sure how feasible this is... but I don't think it would be impossible. If it is... I have many contacts to start that dialogue. I think EA would see it as a victory over Steam, and possible a welcome public relations benefit. I know they have done similar things before, if not rarely...

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Old 12-12-2017, 12:30 AM   #30
[R-DEV]Rhino
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I'm aware, but the technical experience of long term members... as well as their integration into account systems, or in some cases just knowledge of improperly documented code/functions/systems can be major loses if there isn't a proper off-boarding process as well.

For instance the previous Slick issue. The bigger this game gets... and the longer people stay, and then subsequently leave... the more damage that is going to cause. Without a properly mandated/structured documentation and issue system, as well as commit comments/etc... onboarding new developers gets exponentially more difficult as time goes on.

I'm going to be forward, and assume that Rhino alone holds enough information in his head... that his departure would make maintaining certain parts of the project practically infinitely impossible to relearn/rebuild/develop.

I want to know more about the documentation process, and where your documentation it is stored/maintained/made available by developers.
While that is true to some degree, it has never been a huge problem, other than with Slicks case, and that was simply because for w/e reason we will probably never know since no one can get in contact properly with him, he refused to hand over the accounts etc which has never been a problem with anyone else. Everyone else, both past and present in the team have always handed over w/e they felt was needed to be handed over before they left, and after they left, in terms of accounts, assets and knowledge.

TBH the biggest setback in terms of people leaving we have had other than Slick, was the loss of both our Animators (Chuc and KaB) as while they where both more than happy to hand over all their knowledge etc, they didn't have any time they could put towards making new animations in the future which did set us back a bit. But luckily Wlfk has come out of the community in the last few months and has really stepped up in the animations department. TBH we had the exact same issue when Chuc initially left but then KaB stepped up to that too.

So the problem there really hasn't been so much knowledge, tbh that has been handed down pretty well in most cases though tutorials and just internal comms (old members still chip into our internal dev discussions now and then even). The bigger loss is not having anyone of a particular skillset, that is when things really grind to a hult in terms of development.

If I was to leave PR, while yes some knowledge would be lost where I haven't been able to make tuts for things (but over the years I've made quite a few tuts etc), PR could easily continue development without me and I would more than happy to chip in on any problems where I can help but the biggest blow from me leaving, would be more me not able to work on things myself rather than how I work on them.

As for where are documentation is, pretty much all of it is fully public knowledge and can be found in our tutorials section, anything that isn't in the public domain is not there since either it has no relevance to the community and/or is sensitive material that could be exploited in the wrong hands (like how to use our SVN servers).
Modding Tutorials - Project Reality Forums


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1. Distributing tightly edited, pretty, and educational PDF tutorial files, that explain to community members how to create a single cohesive asset in Project Reality. Like a map, weapon, or vehicle. Or creating tightly edited videos that do the same thing.
Well, there is no straightforward guide you can make to any of that. Each map, weapon, vehicle etc has its own set of unique problems, hell there are vast differences between wheeled and tracked vehicles on how you make/export them and many other things. We are also always making advances in the ways we do things. This is also not to forget that making any kind of tutorial takes a huge amount of time and this is coming from the person who has made the majority of them for the community. Even a somewhat simple video tutorial is pretty hard to make and takes quite a lot of time.

The closest thing to what you're asking for would be this thou for maps:
http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f189...inners-up.html

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Originally Posted by Bluedrake42 View Post
2. Integrating important tools into the launcher itself, as well as possibly bundling development tools (and their required subsequent files) into single easy-to-install packages that help potential developers more conveniently expose themselves to elemental development software.
A download button for some tools like the BF2 Editor in the launcher might be an idea but having them fully integrated would take up too much space, and while it might get a few more people to load up the editor, without actually seeking out to make a map from the offset it will probably put more people off from mapping etc than getting people into it since the learning curve is pretty steep to begin with.

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3. Developing content management systems, and possibly integrating them into core community services (like the auto-downloader.) Anything that centralizes distribution of additional community content like mini-mods, maps, or otherwise... into a single well maintained, easily accessible, and easily utilized service.
The biggest issue with this, other than actually making the infrastructure to make it work, is it splitting the community even more with some players playing mini mods, some playing with some custom content, and others playing standard etc, but more likely than that, servers will not run these custom mini-mods etc for more than just a one-off events. It is hard enough as it is to get servers to run the different map layers than the most popular ones even

TBH IMO we are better off spending that time integrating any good content fully into the mod, rather than having some possibly low quality / questionable content that players can opt to download and play, some may even change the core beliefs of our mod, which is the same reason why we outlawed server-side modding in the early days as servers where turning PR into vBF2 with more powerful weapons with them lower the spawn times of vehicles etc.


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Also I'm not sure... but there is potentially even an angle to have Project Reality supported through Origin. I'm not sure how feasible this is... but I don't think it would be impossible. If it is... I have many contacts to start that dialogue. I think EA would see it as a victory over Steam, and possible a welcome public relations benefit. I know they have done similar things before, if not rarely...
If EA was up to that I'm sure we would be, in principle

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