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Rating: 9 votes, 3.33 average.
Infantry weapon damage changes
Posted in: Features
Posted 04-22-2017 at 11:13 PM by M42 Zwilling

The next hotfix, which will be out shortly, will also have some big changes to the infantry weapon meta: kinetic energy (KE) inspired damage settings. I've been collecting ammunition data for PR's factions ever since I joined the team. This will be the first stage of putting it to use.

The final implementation, which will take into account smaller differences in bullet weights and barrel lengths, will take more time. In the meantime, this will have most of the same gameplay impact.

Each weapon will now have a base damage that is typical for its caliber as before, but that damage will be set on hard data - on a typical projectile weight and muzzle velocity for that caliber. I've also made other tweaks to the damage model, such as tweaking body armor effectiveness and damage loss over distance.

In more detail:
  • Base damage will be KE-based. This is an oversimplification, but at least it's based on hard data now. Most factions in PR have heavy enough body armor to completely stop small arms calibers from penetrating anyway - in this case internal trauma would realistically depend on KE. There is room to expand on the modifiers against unarmored targets, but that is much harder to put a number to. 5.56/5.45 will stay the baseline, at least for now - its damage will be about the same as in 1.4.7. Other calibers though be more extreme based on the KE difference compared to 5.56. Full-powered 7.62 will still be a 2-shot kill to the torso with body armor, but a one-shot without. On the other hand, 9mm will be much weaker.

  • Faster damage loss over distance. In reality a 7.62 loses about half of its KE at 400m, and a 5.56 2/3. Previously, most rifle bullets weren't set to lose any damage until they hit 400m, with the damage lost stopping at 1000m. The distance settings for snipers were 2-3x larger. Now the damage loss will always start immediately, and cease when the round would go transonic (this tends to destabilize the bullet - later the bullet will be set to despawn completely at this point to represent that).

  • Removal of the 'skill bonus' to damage for marksmen and sniper weapons. Previously, they had a higher base damage setting compared to to the same caliber when in a normal infantry kit's weapon. This was originally added under the reasoning that they have better training it hitting vital areas. That might make sense for a SWAT sniper, but not in engagements about engagements at several hundred meters against targets with body armor that will prevent a sniper bullet from hitting vital organs at all. Such training should also not help in damage against vehicles, but with almost 2x the base damage in some cases it definitely did in PR.

  • Addition of a new material for the lower torso. Previously the damage modifiers for upper and lower torso (i.e. the hips/upper leg area) were the same, so shooting someone in the upper thigh would do as much damage as a chest shot without armor. Now the amount of damage is between upper torso and limbs.

  • Adjustments to the damage modifiers against body armor. Before modifiers varied depending on the caliber. 7.62 was set to do slightly better against heavy body armor than 5.56, even though neither can penetrate level IV protection. 5.56 was losing some damage against light armor, but realistically a high velocity projectile will overcome a ballistic vest so quickly that almost no energy is lost. Now the system is all-or-nothing. A projectile will do either 1x(base damage) against body armor if it cannot penetrate, and 1.7x, the same as no armor, if it can.

  • Kit changes to unconventional factions to account for the low-caliber damage nerf. Most submachine guns in particular got replaced with larger-caliber weapons in spawn menu kits. These were moved instead to ones that don't need firepower as much, like the engineer.

How these changes will change the meta:
  • Pistol-calibers and buckshot will be worse against modern factions since they all have at least ballistic vests. They are nerfed somewhat against unarmored ones as well.

  • Battle rifles, and with them MEC, will be buffed. A 7.62 hitting the hips/upper leg area, which as I said is not affected by body armor, will take a player down in one hit at close range (out to ~80-90m). Other than personal preference, there were not many reasons to take them before. Generally 5.56 had double the ammo, lower recoil, lower settle time, and a higher fire rate. Somewhat higher damage was the only advantage, but was too small to be worth it - 5.56 was still a 2-shot kill against the unprotected lower torso/legs.

  • Marksmen will be buffed for the same reason.

  • Most snipers will be nerfed against conventional forces - all 7.62 are now a 2-shot against heavy body armor even at point blank since the skill bonus is gone. Only .338 snipers like the C14 and AWM keep one-shot potential and retain it out to significant range. Marksman will be a better choice for most situations.

  • Long-range fire will be less effective overall.

  • Close-range combat in Vietnam and the Falklands will be extremely deadly due to the lack of body armor and abundance of full-power 7.62 rifles.

Obviously this will shake up the balance. Unconventional factions won't have the problem of relying on the nerfed SMGs, but we're expecting some issues elsewhere (I may have to remove some of the M14's on Vietnam for example). Feel free to tell us what you think of the changes and balance once 1.4.8 is out!

Chart:
Not including head, cause that is just as deadly as before.


Updated 04-23-2017 at 11:24 AM by [R-DEV]Mats391
Views: 20069 | Comments: 64


Comments
Total Comments: 64
  1. Old Comment
    tankninja1's Avatar
    >(I may have to remove some of the M14's on Vietnam for example)

    You son of a bitch.

    MEC is going to wreak the Americans on Muttrah now.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OriginalWarrior View Comment
    Pathetic. This is the first step to having this game die.
    No, server admins did that themselves.
    permalink
    Posted 04-23-2017 at 10:52 PM by tankninja1 tankninja1 is offline
  2. Old Comment
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by [R-DEV]M42 Zwilling View Comment
    That would be momentum, kinetic energy is 1/2*mass*velocity^2.
    I still dont understand how it will be formulated. Please elaborate further.
    permalink
    Posted 04-24-2017 at 12:21 AM by obpmgmua obpmgmua is offline
  3. Old Comment
    Ferdinand_Amadeus's Avatar
    The damage changes are terrible.
    A useless attempt to implement this idea on this engine. A lot of things that the author did not take into account. Whether it was necessary to change something in this direction?
    permalink
    Posted 04-24-2017 at 12:26 AM by Ferdinand_Amadeus Ferdinand_Amadeus is offline
  4. Old Comment
    is the M1911 using 9mm values or something else in game?
    permalink
    Posted 04-24-2017 at 07:02 AM by schakal811 schakal811 is offline
  5. Old Comment
    M42 Zwilling's Avatar
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBoy205 View Comment
    Whoever came up with half of this obviously skipped their physics classes
    Elaborate. It is not a perfect system by any means, but if you can come with any improvements that can actually be implemented practically, be my guest.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by izvil View Comment
    zwilling show your refs about muzzle energy for all weapons. becouse this
    "545 39 damage 38
    556.45 damage 46"
    is total bullshit
    5.45x39 7N24
    Projectile weight: 4.15 g
    Muzzle velocity (AK-74M): 840 m/s
    Muzzle energy: 1464 J

    5.56x45 M855
    Projectile weight: 4 g
    Muzzle velocity (M16A4): 945 m/s
    Muzzle energy: 1786 J

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by schakal811 View Comment
    is the M1911 using 9mm values or something else in game?
    The loads represented ingame are about the same - 9mm has much higher velocity making up for its lower projectile weight.
    permalink
    Posted 04-24-2017 at 11:32 AM by M42 Zwilling M42 Zwilling is offline
  6. Old Comment
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tankninja1 View Comment
    No, server admins did that themselves.
    buddy look at the feedback, this made the gameplay all broken, most INS maps are so unbalanced to the point of being unplayable, no improvement was made

    all for the sake of muh realism??
    permalink
    Posted 04-24-2017 at 11:37 AM by Mostacho Mostacho is offline
  7. Old Comment
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by [R-DEV]M42 Zwilling View Comment
    Elaborate. It is not a perfect system by any means, but if you can come with any improvements that can actually be implemented practically, be my guest.

    .
    Leave as it was, just increase a little the dmg on higher caliber guns

    This game is limited by its engine, you cant make the bullet damage realistic if everything else is unrealistic.
    permalink
    Posted 04-24-2017 at 12:01 PM by Mostacho Mostacho is offline
    Updated 04-24-2017 at 02:04 PM by Mostacho
  8. Old Comment
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by [R-DEV]M42 Zwilling View Comment
    I might remove sniper bullet drop completely) so it is easier to land a headshot.
    As a frequent and very good PR sniper, here are my thoughts. I am not at all happy with the changes, and don't believe they accurately reflect the real world.

    1. Removing the drop from the sniper bullet would be crazy. Mastering the bullet drop is what separates an excellent PR sniper from a noob.

    2. The whole concept of this patch as it relates to snipers is totally unrealistic. In the real world a military sniper going against an armored force would always use a .50BMG, .338, and/or armor penetrating ammo sufficient to penetrate the armor. The real world motto is "one shot one kill" and real world snipers would take whatever steps necessary to make that happen. They aren't generally training modern snipers to aim for the legs (or head), they are giving them equipment and ammunition sufficient to deal with armor, and training to shoot center mass.

    The problem of requiring multiple sniper hits in PR was extensively discussed in another post, and it lead to all the sniper rifles being buffed to a one-shot-kill a few patches ago. Requiring multiple shots makes the sniper totally useless (and unrealistic in purpose) in PR, as someone can take many many rounds by going to a medic and getting healed, which is itself totally unrealistic.

    The way the dynamics are after this latest patch, a sniper can chest shot, player gets healed by medic, leg shot, healed by medic, leg shot, patched from crate, head shot, revived and healed by medic. How is that at all realistic?

    I applaud you for trying to adjust damages and ranges etc to more accurately reflect the real world projectiles, but the snipers were fine, and I think these changes are very bad for the overall game play. Again, if the snipers were somehow overpowered (I don't think they were) the way to nerf them is by increasing skill cap (bullet rise and drop), not by making them require multiple hits which patches and medics can (unrealistically) heal away.

    Also, the reality of plate armor (especially steel armor) is that it would stop multiple rated rounds, so from a strict realism perspective it should stop ALL 9mm rounds, ALL buckshot, and many machine gun bursts, as well as all underrated sniper chest shots. The round either penetrates and causes massive internal damage, or it doesn't penetrate and (might) cause bruising. This new damage system, especially as it relates to snipers, isn't realistic, and makes it like vanilla BF2. And btw, 5.56 actually penetrates armor substantially BETTER than 7.62 (look it up) so this is actually backwards in the game now, from a view of strict realism.
    permalink
    Posted 04-24-2017 at 12:55 PM by Bonecrusher76 Bonecrusher76 is offline
    Updated 04-24-2017 at 07:01 PM by Bonecrusher76
  9. Old Comment
    I really appreciate people working on PR and updating the outdated mechanics, but in this case I have to join the people who are dissatisfied with the patch. The idea to make things more grounded in reality is nice, but it's not particularly helpful in creating fun gameplay.

    As far as I can see right now pistols and small calibre weapons are essentially useless[1], battle rifles are ridiculously overpowering at any range[2], and the gap between body armour and no body armour is wider than ever.

    Putting the specifics aside, my problem is that the current "realistic" implementation leaves big holes in the gameplay experience and balance, but by definition leaves little to tweak. If you start changing the underlying phyics, bullet mass/speed/energy, etc. the system ceases to be realistic. And at that point the whole new damage model doesn't seem to be warranted in the first place.

    Finally, I don't think that implementing a change that affects literally every player, faction and map, should be implemented in such a short notice, or at least it should be really flexible and open to criticism. Otherwise we can see how unforeseen interactions or consequences can be a real headache for players and devs alike.


    [1]: 16 chest shots to kill a guy with a Makarov. I know the Marakov is a pretty shitty pistol, but please. ?_?
    [2]: Played Muttrah, Jabal, Sbeneh, MEC is just stomping everyone with the G3's 2 or 1 hit kills.
    permalink
    Posted 04-24-2017 at 01:30 PM by Aleon Aleon is online now
  10. Old Comment
    Great work! It's really nice to see something like that, I think this is what PR needs. Keep it up!
    permalink
    Posted 04-24-2017 at 01:52 PM by SucharMistrz SucharMistrz is offline
 

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