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Rating: 9 votes, 3.33 average.
Infantry weapon damage changes
Posted in: Features
Posted 04-22-2017 at 11:13 PM by M42 Zwilling

The next hotfix, which will be out shortly, will also have some big changes to the infantry weapon meta: kinetic energy (KE) inspired damage settings. I've been collecting ammunition data for PR's factions ever since I joined the team. This will be the first stage of putting it to use.

The final implementation, which will take into account smaller differences in bullet weights and barrel lengths, will take more time. In the meantime, this will have most of the same gameplay impact.

Each weapon will now have a base damage that is typical for its caliber as before, but that damage will be set on hard data - on a typical projectile weight and muzzle velocity for that caliber. I've also made other tweaks to the damage model, such as tweaking body armor effectiveness and damage loss over distance.

In more detail:
  • Base damage will be KE-based. This is an oversimplification, but at least it's based on hard data now. Most factions in PR have heavy enough body armor to completely stop small arms calibers from penetrating anyway - in this case internal trauma would realistically depend on KE. There is room to expand on the modifiers against unarmored targets, but that is much harder to put a number to. 5.56/5.45 will stay the baseline, at least for now - its damage will be about the same as in 1.4.7. Other calibers though be more extreme based on the KE difference compared to 5.56. Full-powered 7.62 will still be a 2-shot kill to the torso with body armor, but a one-shot without. On the other hand, 9mm will be much weaker.

  • Faster damage loss over distance. In reality a 7.62 loses about half of its KE at 400m, and a 5.56 2/3. Previously, most rifle bullets weren't set to lose any damage until they hit 400m, with the damage lost stopping at 1000m. The distance settings for snipers were 2-3x larger. Now the damage loss will always start immediately, and cease when the round would go transonic (this tends to destabilize the bullet - later the bullet will be set to despawn completely at this point to represent that).

  • Removal of the 'skill bonus' to damage for marksmen and sniper weapons. Previously, they had a higher base damage setting compared to to the same caliber when in a normal infantry kit's weapon. This was originally added under the reasoning that they have better training it hitting vital areas. That might make sense for a SWAT sniper, but not in engagements about engagements at several hundred meters against targets with body armor that will prevent a sniper bullet from hitting vital organs at all. Such training should also not help in damage against vehicles, but with almost 2x the base damage in some cases it definitely did in PR.

  • Addition of a new material for the lower torso. Previously the damage modifiers for upper and lower torso (i.e. the hips/upper leg area) were the same, so shooting someone in the upper thigh would do as much damage as a chest shot without armor. Now the amount of damage is between upper torso and limbs.

  • Adjustments to the damage modifiers against body armor. Before modifiers varied depending on the caliber. 7.62 was set to do slightly better against heavy body armor than 5.56, even though neither can penetrate level IV protection. 5.56 was losing some damage against light armor, but realistically a high velocity projectile will overcome a ballistic vest so quickly that almost no energy is lost. Now the system is all-or-nothing. A projectile will do either 1x(base damage) against body armor if it cannot penetrate, and 1.7x, the same as no armor, if it can.

  • Kit changes to unconventional factions to account for the low-caliber damage nerf. Most submachine guns in particular got replaced with larger-caliber weapons in spawn menu kits. These were moved instead to ones that don't need firepower as much, like the engineer.

How these changes will change the meta:
  • Pistol-calibers and buckshot will be worse against modern factions since they all have at least ballistic vests. They are nerfed somewhat against unarmored ones as well.

  • Battle rifles, and with them MEC, will be buffed. A 7.62 hitting the hips/upper leg area, which as I said is not affected by body armor, will take a player down in one hit at close range (out to ~80-90m). Other than personal preference, there were not many reasons to take them before. Generally 5.56 had double the ammo, lower recoil, lower settle time, and a higher fire rate. Somewhat higher damage was the only advantage, but was too small to be worth it - 5.56 was still a 2-shot kill against the unprotected lower torso/legs.

  • Marksmen will be buffed for the same reason.

  • Most snipers will be nerfed against conventional forces - all 7.62 are now a 2-shot against heavy body armor even at point blank since the skill bonus is gone. Only .338 snipers like the C14 and AWM keep one-shot potential and retain it out to significant range. Marksman will be a better choice for most situations.

  • Long-range fire will be less effective overall.

  • Close-range combat in Vietnam and the Falklands will be extremely deadly due to the lack of body armor and abundance of full-power 7.62 rifles.

Obviously this will shake up the balance. Unconventional factions won't have the problem of relying on the nerfed SMGs, but we're expecting some issues elsewhere (I may have to remove some of the M14's on Vietnam for example). Feel free to tell us what you think of the changes and balance once 1.4.8 is out!

Chart:
Not including head, cause that is just as deadly as before.


Updated 04-23-2017 at 11:24 AM by [R-DEV]Mats391
Views: 20036 | Comments: 64


Comments
Total Comments: 64
  1. Old Comment
    Paine's Avatar
    Please release a damage chart so everyone can understand.

    I read all of that, and i still have no idea what changes are being made. It is all very confusing. Thank you for your hard work!

    Some comments on the meta, if I understand this correctly:

    This is silly. Gameplay and balance are more important that what you imagine is "realism".

    MEC vs USMC on muttrah. Center mass 4 shots to kill with 556 vs 2 shots to kill with 762. Massively and needlessly destabilizing. Go on, test it, two players duel 50 times, see what your results are. The idea that 556 "having more ammo and shooting faster" matters a wit is also silly. Are they shooting twice as fast? No. Even if they were, that is still FOUR HITS vs TWO, not every shot out of the barrel will hit, probability and player skill matter here. Silly.

    Want realism? how about 6k/1 K/D ratio BLUFOR/INS? How about total suppression effects after getting hit by any bullet once? Or a ROCK, for that matter? How about not having players 100% after using three patches on a chest wound? The list is endless.

    Balance with what realism is possible in the game environment without breaking gameplay is what matters.

    #Deletemuttrah, btw.
    permalink
    Posted 04-23-2017 at 06:35 AM by Paine Paine is offline
    Updated 04-23-2017 at 07:19 AM by Paine
  2. Old Comment
    Teewurst's Avatar
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Geronimo View Comment
    I always thought Marksman and Sniper rifles do more damage than a "standard" 7.62 rifle because they use better (match) ammo.
    I thought that too. And dont they have a higher velocity due to the longer barrel?

    So can you bring back 50.cal sniper rifles? To buff the now nerfed sniper?
    permalink
    Posted 04-23-2017 at 07:46 AM by Teewurst Teewurst is offline
  3. Old Comment
    M42 Zwilling's Avatar
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by obpmgmua View Comment
    What exact formula will you be using? Velocity times Mass at POI?
    That would be momentum, kinetic energy is 1/2*mass*velocity^2.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Frontliner View Comment
    I don't like the changes. There is no way to realistically portray the effects of a bullet hitting a person, so bullet damage is a design choice made for gameplay.
    Wounding effects are indeed hard to model, but I didn't make any attempt to model the complexities of wounding effects against just soft targets. This reworks base damage, i.e. against all types of targets. Especially for effects against armored infantry and vehicles, kinetic energy is actually a fairly accurate measure of damage.

    Whether or not you like more deadly gameplay comes down to personal preference. I liked WW2's K98k, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I don't see it as making gameplay a shallow point and click, but leaving less room for mistakes.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Geronimo View Comment
    I always thought Marksman and Sniper rifles do more damage than a "standard" 7.62 rifle because they use better (match) ammo.
    That affects damage loss over distance, not so much terminal effects.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Paine View Comment
    MEC vs USMC on muttrah. Center mass 4 shots to kill with 556 vs 2 shots to kill with 762. Massively and needlessly destabilizing. Go on, test it, two players duel 50 times, see what your results are. The idea that 556 "having more ammo and shooting faster" matters a wit is also silly. Are they shooting twice as fast? No. Even if they were, that is still FOUR HITS vs TWO, not every shot out of the barrel will hit, probability and player skill matter here. Silly..
    This is wrong, center mass is not a 4-hit kill. It has always taken either 2 or 3 depending on where you hit (assuming no headshot). If it takes 4, at least one hit didn't register server-side.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Teewurst View Comment
    I thought that too. And dont they have a higher velocity due to the longer barrel?
    You are correct. I modified the existing projectile templates rather than creating separate ones for each weapon and ammo combination (this will come later). There were already separate templates for 7.62 battle rifle and 7.62 sniper. I chose a typical muzzle velocity and projectile weight for each, and as a result snipers will still do slightly more damage.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Teewurst View Comment
    So can you bring back 50.cal sniper rifles? To buff the now nerfed sniper?
    Not likely, we would need too many new models and animations. What is more likely is adjustable scopes (or in the meantime I might remove sniper bullet drop completely) so it is easier to land a headshot.
    permalink
    Posted 04-23-2017 at 08:50 AM by M42 Zwilling M42 Zwilling is offline
  4. Old Comment
    Paine's Avatar
    Why is that scenario wrong given your changes? In your changes, how many shots to kill center mass USMC M16A4 vs MEC G3?

    Pelvic shots?

    Post a chart dude, this back and forth is a waste of time.

    I know how it always has been, lol, thanks. 2 shots with 556, 2 shots with 762. Why are you fixing what isn't broken? Needless.
    permalink
    Posted 04-23-2017 at 09:14 AM by Paine Paine is offline
  5. Old Comment
    You know, there is a big difference between 7,62x39; 7,62x54R, 7,62x54R 7N1; 7,62x54R 7N14 and 7,62x51 NATO.... Will you take it in measure? Or will an AK-47 (using7,62x39) deal the same damage as SVD (Using 7,62x54R, probably one of 7N1 or 7N14 sniper rounds), just because "7,62"?
    permalink
    Posted 04-23-2017 at 09:33 AM by Mrmlik Mrmlik is offline
    Updated 04-23-2017 at 09:38 AM by Mrmlik
  6. Old Comment
    If there is a way back, i am open to changes

    Bud i believe it will mess the gameplay in huge chunk of the maps

    The thing people love about PR is not that it is realistic, for sure it isn't kkk

    It is all about the balance,between a fast paced combat as battlefield and a touch of realism

    Just dont ruin that balance
    permalink
    Posted 04-23-2017 at 10:50 AM by Mostacho Mostacho is offline
  7. Old Comment
    Energy is one thing, terminal ballistics is something else. You're never going to simulate this realistically. It was balanced just fine before, nobody complained about this. IDK why are you trying to fix something that isn't broken in the first place...

    Inb4 Mec OP... Mg-3 900rpm of one shot kills and a marksman rifle for everybody gg
    permalink
    Posted 04-23-2017 at 10:54 AM by hugger hugger is offline
    Updated 04-23-2017 at 11:01 AM by hugger
  8. Old Comment
    [R-DEV]Mats391's Avatar
    I added a chart to show damage+hitboxes.
    permalink
    Posted 04-23-2017 at 11:24 AM by [R-DEV]Mats391 [R-DEV]Mats391 is offline
  9. Old Comment
    M42 Zwilling's Avatar
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mrmlik View Comment
    You know, there is a big difference between 7,62x39; 7,62x54R, 7,62x54R 7N1; 7,62x54R 7N14 and 7,62x51 NATO.... Will you take it in measure? Or will an AK-47 (using7,62x39) deal the same damage as SVD (Using 7,62x54R, probably one of 7N1 or 7N14 sniper rounds), just because "7,62"?
    Yes, there are still differences between all of those. In the OP I am referring to full-size 7.62x51 or 7.62x54 when I talk about 7.62. 7.62x39 has about the same damage as before.
    permalink
    Posted 04-23-2017 at 12:06 PM by M42 Zwilling M42 Zwilling is offline
  10. Old Comment
    CG-Delta's Avatar
    Is all this included in the new v1.4.8.0?
    permalink
    Posted 04-23-2017 at 12:38 PM by CG-Delta CG-Delta is offline
 

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